FIFA and Non Sovereign States

[Charlie Darwin]

It would be very hypocritical of the FAI to support any plan for pre-qualification, and to be fair after the Gibraltar episode I'd be inclined to believe Delaney et al are more sympathetic to the minnows than the big guys. Still, realpolitik might take over. The only way I can there even being an argument for it is if it is balanced out with lucrative friendlies against top-tier nations so they still get the experience of playing against the best and don't get cut out of the financial pie.

[geysir]

I don't see why the Iceland fa chief was quoted in that WSC article, Iceland are not minnows when it comes to the FIFA rankings. Iceland should be passing Ireland by, in the FIFA ranking table, on there way up on Tuesday night.

It would be very hypocritical of the FAI to support any plan for pre-qualification, and to be fair after the Gibraltar episode I'd be inclined to believe Delaney et al are more sympathetic to the minnows than the big guys. Still, realpolitik might take over. The only way I can there even being an argument for it is if it is balanced out with lucrative friendlies against top-tier nations so they still get the experience of playing against the best and don't get cut out of the financial pie.

A good place to start, is to read the arguments for weeding out the few minnows then you might acknowledge there exists a few
Vast majority of UEFA competitions already have elements of pre-qualifying.
2 which are open to all, are u21 and senior men.
With a population of over 1/2m and one of the richest countries in Europe, Luxembourg would need to be hit with a big stick if they lost a playoff to the likes of San Marino, Andorra, or Gibraltar.
By my reckoning, 10 groups of 5 would have meant say the bottom 4 teams playing-off or competing in pre-qualifying group for 2 places.
With Gibraltar in there, that means bottom 5 competing in pre-qualifiers for 2 places.
This proposal for EURO 2016 is a radical departure from the standard formats of previous competitions.
12 groups of 4, cuts out 5 teams and at the very least you'd involve the bottom 7 teams in a pre-qualifer event for 2 places or the bottom 10 teams if you were to have pre-qualifier playoffs. This makes it a few degrees more ruthless and less palatable.

[DannyInvincible]

It would be very hypocritical of the FAI to support any plan for pre-qualification

After the play-off in Paris?

[Charlie Darwin]

After the play-off in Paris?

Yes, and the general travails of a team that suffers from the seeding system being stacked against mid-ranking sides.

[ArdeeBhoy]

But there are too many teams. And if/when Greenland & Kosovo come in...

[NeverFeltBetter]

Which is not on the horizon at all, barring a major shift in Russia's objections.

[ArdeeBhoy]

To Greenland?

Seriously, Russia must be more worried about further of its own regions breaking away rather than Kosovo which has never been part of its own sovereign territory.
And ultimately is none of their business, despite their own restless Muslim minorities.

[NeverFeltBetter]

That's the exact reason though. Its nothing to do with Kosovo exactly, but the kind of precedent that recognising Kosovo sets - for, say, places like Chechnya (and Russia's pals Serbia, who will never recognise Kosovo). Kosovo won't get full recognised status by the UN anytime soon, so it won't be in FIFA or UEFA anytime soon.

Greenland has its own issues, more to do with ingrained FIFA hypocrisy. They still aren't ready to be members anyway.

[ArdeeBhoy]

FIFA & UEFA seem to be operating under different rules as the former say they're only going to admit full sovereign countries from now on?
Whereas UEFA (& FIFA previously) are happy to include various, almost random, colonial outposts...

[NeverFeltBetter]

Its the recurring issue of the retroactive applications. Gibraltar first applied before UEFA altered its criteria to include provisions that any prospective member state had to be recognised by the UN, so the CAS said such a provision had to be ignored in their case. It doesn't have to be for Kosovo, whose application has come way later, and who are unlikely to be recognised as a UN member any time soon. Your next UEFA member is more likely to be Wallonia or Flanders, or possibly even Catalunya looking at some recent movements in that part of the world.

While its easy to treat Russia as the bad guy in this situation, I actually have some sympathy and time for their viewpoint. Legitimising Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence is a very dangerous can of worms for future situations. While in the case of Kosovo, most reasonable arguments for independence - a separate national identity, self-governing, not being a "failed" state, no reasonable expectation of reconciliation with state it was once part of, and a (fairly) clear democratic mandate - exist in spades, it might not for any region that wants to take advantage of the precedent set in future, which could potentially cause chaos in parts of the world down the line.

On the issue of football, I think the requirement for UN recognition is a good thing, it just came too late. Its unfortunate for some regions and territories and feel they have a right to a separate footballing identity, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

[osarusan]

I hope that pre-qualification never comes in.

[Spudulika]

To Greenland?

Seriously, Russia must be more worried about further of its own regions breaking away rather than Kosovo which has never been part of its own sovereign territory.
And ultimately is none of their business, despite their own restless Muslim minorities.

Sadly it is Russia's business as few other countries will bother to stand up for the rights of the Orthodox minority - Greece ran from it and the US and GB just fund mercenary troops to look after installations (as well as maintain a base for keeping an eye on EE and the ME). The issue of Kosovo is very difficult and there are too many human rights issues to be resolved, as well as return of property to make it straightforward. It's a failed state as it is and glorified military base.

I agree that Russia is worried about it's own muslim regions, especially from pipelines and access, though few would genuinely want to separate - unless it's to form a new caliphate which even Iran doesn't want - though the Saudi's and Qatari's are determined to drive to further destabilise the region for their own perverted religious ends.

Agree with Osarusan, would hate to see pre-qualifying come into Europe, even though it exists in other regions.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I hear you, though personally recognise Kosovo's right to exist, unlike some I suspect. And have at least been to that part of the world unlike many.

However, regardless of the geo-political angle if the no.of European teams just expands inexorably, pre-qualifying is inevitable. And if the rest of the world has to endure this, why should Europe be any different? Smacks of arrogance to me...

[ArdeeBhoy]

Gibraltar get desperate?

http://backpagefootball.com/twitter-now-a-medium-for-international-recruitment/63537/

[Gather round]

if the no.of European teams just expands inexorably, pre-qualifying is inevitable. And if the rest of the world has to endure this, why should Europe be any different? Smacks of arrogance to me...

Earlier on this, or a similar parallel thread I counted the number of games in current Euro qualifying, and then in an imaginary future tournament with many more European teams competing.

Current: 53 teams in nine groups (8x6, 1x5). So 268 qualifying games, including the play-offs in November

Imaginary future: 65 teams in 13 groups (13x5). So only 260 matches.

Clearly the cluttering of the fixture list follows not from allowing in village countries, ex-Soviet oblasts and the like but because five groups of six teams play 25% more matches than six groups of five. A situation which exists largely to insure England, France and Portugal against regularly finishing second in their groups.

I take the point made by Geysir and others, ie that more minnows means more mismatches. Allowing everyone a chance in a mini-league rather than just one two-legged cup tie every tournament outweighs that. That restriction is more arrogant than Europe organising its qualification tourney differently to the others without inconveniencing them.

I imagine Steve Menary refers Iceland in the WSC article because he assumes that such a small country will almost always be a minnow despite current good results

[Gather round]

Question to Spud: isn't the Serb minority in Kosovo concentrated largely in towns on the border with Serbia? If so, can't they just redraw the line around them?

If not, sorry for showing my ignorance

[BonnieShels]

Question to Spud: isn't the Serb minority in Kosovo concentrated largely in towns on the border with Serbia? If so, can't they just redraw the line around them?

If not, sorry for showing my ignorance

If only redrawing borders was so easy...

[ArdeeBhoy]

Question to Spud: isn't the Serb minority in Kosovo concentrated largely in towns on the border with Serbia? If so, can't they just redraw the line around them?

If not, sorry for showing my ignorance

It doesn't work like that as you well know...
And the 'ignorance' factor is nothing new!


As for the pre-qualfiying debate, posted a link to yer WSC thread in the Euro 2016 one on here.
There are now too many minnows to bother about them all. A no.of which aren't even in Europe anyway...

[geysir]

I imagine Steve Menary refers Iceland in the WSC article because he assumes that such a small country will almost always be a minnow despite current good results

He quotes the Iceland FA chief saying nothing, lips sealed with super glue
"......"
I suppose there is some point to that

AFAIR Iceland have only dropped to the minnow dungeon once in modern history, after a qual campaign where they hardly picked up a point and dropped into pot 6 for a quick visit. One major reason for that, was they let the u21 squad be at full strength for their qual campaign, and didn't select them for the senior team.
The current situation is that both u21 and senior squads are in serious contention for play-off places.
So, you can shove your Steve Menary assumptions where the sun don't shine

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ha, was that after the campaign where even we racked up about seven goals against them in two games...


Doh, it was 4 goals in one game. The other ended 0-0. I may even have been at it, so memorable was the game.