Trapattoni - who would you replace him with?

**youngirish** · 27/10/2013, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by geysir

I don't know how you managed to construe that overriding memory but it was McAteer who had Duff's place not Kilbane. Whenever Duff was used in the 2002 qualifiers, from our 2nd game onwards, he replaced McAteer, except in the home game against Holland where Duff and him played together. Duff was injured after that for the last game and for the play offs. Duff started in the first friendly in 2002 - got injured, in the next friendly against Denmark, Duff was the star.
After Mick left, Kerr used both Kilbane and Duff together.

I managed to construe nothing. Duff was playing left midfield for his club Blackburn at the time whilst Kilbane was playing left midfield for Ireland. How you can say McAteer, a right side midfielder, was played instead of him demands a manipulation of the facts that I can't quite seem to get my head around.

Could McCarthy have dropped McAteer and played Duff right midfield? Of course but it wasn't a position Duff had been playing for his club regularly. However the obvious place to play him would have been at the position he was used to playing, left midfield, in place of a player who IMO was considerably more limited than McAteer.

While as stated it may be true that after Mick left Kerr played Kilbane and Duff together, you are economical with the whole truth. This was mainly due to the fact that McAteer at that time was 33 and his International career was at an end. Also at this time Duff had been used mainly as a right midfielder at Chelsea once Robben arrived and had proven to be comfortable in that position, something he hadn't been expected to do at Blackburn. Also implying that because Kerr selected both that in some way exonerates McCarthy is flawed in the respect that Kerr was proven to be lacking tactically on many occasions during his tenure as manager.

**SkStu** · 27/10/2013, 2:55 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Whatever people like the doc think of Noel King, I think King's starting point of a fluent 4231 and trusting the players to play it out from the back if that's what they feel is appropriate is the right place to be starting from. I didn't like the balance of King's selections but the principle was broadly right.

I really like the message here and in particular the highlighted piece as those were the thoughts going through my head when I was watching the games.

**geysir** · 27/10/2013, 3:22 PM

Originally Posted by youngirish

I managed to construe nothing. Duff was playing left midfield for his club Blackburn at the time whilst Kilbane was playing left midfield for Ireland. How you can say McAteer, a right side midfielder, was played instead of him demands a manipulation of the facts that I can't quite seem to get my head around.

Could McCarthy have dropped McAteer and played Duff right midfield? Of course but it wasn't a position Duff had been playing for his club regularly. However the obvious place to play him would have been at the position he was used to playing, left midfield, in place of a player who IMO was considerably more limited than McAteer.

Duff was used to replace McAteer, thats why I can say it. Mick did drop McAteer to play Duff on the right side, Duff came on at right side v Turkey in the po and his first game in the WC 2002 campaign v Portugal away, to play on the RS in the 2nd half.
He was used more and more in that qual campaign as it progressed and his last game in those qualifiers was on the rs against Holland. As Quinn was not starting, there was space for McAteer as well
At the world cup, Duff played much of his game on the rs again, where he excelled. Maybe Mick knew a bit more about Duff than you profess to know. Afaic, Mick managed that qual campaign well and managed the introduction of Duff into the team during the qual campaign quite well.

While as stated it may be true that after Mick left Kerr played Kilbane and Duff together, you are economical with the whole truth. This was mainly due to the fact that McAteer at that time was 33 and his International career was at an end. Also at this time Duff had been used mainly as a right midfielder at Chelsea once Robben arrived and had proven to be comfortable in that position, something he hadn't been expected to do at Blackburn. Also implying that because Kerr selected both that in some way exonerates McCarthy is flawed in the respect that Kerr was proven to be lacking tactically on many occasions during his tenure as manager.

According to Young Irish, it was an error to play Duff on the RS during Mick's tenure, either because Young Irish does not remember him play on the RS for Ireland or was not impressed by his play v Netherlands or at WC 2002, but aprés Mick, all of a sudden, it was cool to play Duff on the RS, because Duff had played on RS for Chelsea.
Have I got that right?
And every manager we have had, has played Kilbane. Afair, he was never dropped, but according to Young Irish that was a defective management selection and it should be used to against Mick and his credentials for the Irish job, because he should have dropped Kilbane and played Duff on the left side.

**youngirish** · 27/10/2013, 4:05 PM

Originally Posted by geysir

And every manager we have had, has played Kilbane. Afair, he was never dropped, but according to Young Irish that was a defective management selection and it should be used to against Mick and his credentials for the Irish job, because he should have dropped Kilbane and played Duff on the left side.

He was eventually replaced by Trapattoni after struggling along in the left back position for a number of years when arguably we probably didn't have anyone much better. The fact that you can't even see that it might be a black mark against McCarthy when he continued to select Kilbane ahead of probably our most gifted player at that time means your opinion is very suspect on this matter (and many other matters). For the majority of those qualifying games Duff was either on the bench or played out of position. Anyway these gripes are minor, the main point is he often struggled to get the best out of a set of players that were considerably superior to what Trapattoni ever had to work with.

McCarthy is an average Championship manager at best and I don't see Ireland improving to any degree under him. I personally hope he doesn't get the job. If your of the opposite opinion then that's fine also. That just helps to reinforce to me that he likely is the wrong choice.

**the doc** · 27/10/2013, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Whatever people like the doc think of Noel King, I think King's starting point of a fluent 4231 and trusting the players to play it out from the back if that's what they feel is appropriate is the right place to be starting from. I didn't like the balance of King's selections but the principle was broadly right.

I had you down as being one of the more enlightened on here regards the International scene.

There was no, tactical or match based information given, most players didn't even know where they were playing, until a few hours before the games.

What you saw was the players just playing it their own way.

The pub manager, didn't even have a clue, who to bring on, where or when.

Embarrassing!

But hey you carry on believing what's said in the media.

**rebelmusic** · 27/10/2013, 5:42 PM

Originally Posted by the doc

I had you down as being one of the more enlightened on here regards the International scene.

There was no, tactical or match based information given, most players didn't even know where they were playing, until a few hours before the games.

What you saw was the players just playing it their own way.

The pub manager, didn't even have a clue, who to bring on, where or when.

Embarrassing!

But hey you carry on believing what's said in the media.

What you just said is pretty much what everyone's been saying in the media...

**Stuttgart88** · 27/10/2013, 6:11 PM

Originally Posted by the doc

What you saw was the players just playing it their own way.

Funnily enough, that's largely what I think a good manager should do: pick good players in positions that suit them and trust them to play! If King didn't instruct the players to play it from the back then that's an improvement on explicitly not letting them play it from the back!

If you have inside knowledge on what it was like then I can't trump that, obviously.

And if I believed the media I'd think Sean St Ledger was a championship journeyman, anyone on social welfare is a lazy good for nothing thief and only unfettered free markets save us all from tyranny

**the doc** · 27/10/2013, 8:04 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

And if I believed the media I'd think Sean St Ledger was a championship journeyman, anyone on social welfare is a lazy good for nothing thief and only unfettered free markets save us all from tyranny

Ouch!!!!!

Sad to say your probably right on all 3 accounts. 😢

**Stuttgart88** · 27/10/2013, 8:23 PM

I think I'm wrong on all 3. There's only one I have any doubt about!

**the doc** · 27/10/2013, 11:09 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think I'm wrong on all 3. There's only one I have any doubt about!

I agree, I thought you were a little harsh on the welfare recipients and free market points.

**ArdeeBhoy** · 28/10/2013, 1:10 PM

It's immaterial as King won't get the job anyway.

Doubtless the next incumbent will go back to a far more predictable formula?

**Stuttgart88** · 28/10/2013, 1:12 PM

Are you asking whether the new manager will go back to a more predictable formula, or whether it's doubtless that he will?

**BonnieShels** · 29/10/2013, 9:35 AM

Originally Posted by SkStu

I really like the message here and in particular the highlighted piece as those were the thoughts going through my head when I was watching the games.

Stutts on the money again.

**paul_oshea** · 29/10/2013, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by youngirish

He was eventually replaced by Trapattoni after struggling along in the left back position for a number of years when arguably we probably didn't have anyone much better. The fact that you can't even see that it might be a black mark against McCarthy when he continued to select Kilbane ahead of probably our most gifted player at that time means your opinion is very suspect on this matter (and many other matters). For the majority of those qualifying games Duff was either on the bench or played out of position. Anyway these gripes are minor, the main point is he often struggled to get the best out of a set of players that were considerably superior to what Trapattoni ever had to work with.

McCarthy is an average Championship manager at best and I don't see Ireland improving to any degree under him. I personally hope he doesn't get the job. If your of the opposite opinion then that's fine also. That just helps to reinforce to me that he likely is the wrong choice.

There really is nothing like a YI put down :P

**ArdeeBhoy** · 29/10/2013, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Stutts on the money again.

Unfortunately, probably, it's not going to be him...

**Emmet7** · 29/10/2013, 10:42 PM

M'ON in talks with Crystal Palace. Highly likely he'll get the job ahead of Pullis whose style of football wouldn't go down too well.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-29709237.html

I think we can now take it as a given Mick McCarthy will be named Irish Manager in less than a forthnights time. Big gamble bringing him back imo, but no-one likes a gamble more than the FAI.

**Fixer82** · 30/10/2013, 12:56 AM

One of the red tops had an article on David O'Leary being now in contention

**Stuttgart88** · 30/10/2013, 7:55 AM

Well he was on SKY last night so still has a pulse.

**DeLorean** · 30/10/2013, 1:47 PM

If the height of MON's ambition these days is a relegation battle I'm kind of glad we didn't end up with him. A serious fall from grace for a man who was seen as a potential successor to Ferguson or England national team manager not all that long ago. Celtic - Villa - Sunderland - Palace is a fairly radical regression in my opinion.

**Charlie Darwin** · 30/10/2013, 1:49 PM

It's fairly clear that O'Neill always had his heart set on a return to club management. Which is absolutely fine, but it has to rule him out of contention for the Ireland job.