Ref was woeful the whole game. Lets hope we don't get a 'homer' on tuesday.Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
We'd definitely be ahead of Slovakia on GD, they're +2 with Russia, Armenia, and Macedonia left. We're +5 with a game with Andorra to come.
Also, looking at the results, not scoring against Slovakia last night isn't a shock. Especially given they've only conceded in two games so far. That's a fairly impressive stat (except for the 3 goals in Armenia obviously).
True. Plus it has to be remembered Slovakia were missing come of their best players against both us (the 1-1) and Armenia. Having said that I wouldn't be surprised if they drop points against Armenia on Tuesday. They might defend well but they find it very hard to score as well.
Remember, a 3 way tie means only results between the teams are counted, so probably it's points scored are considered first, then we are in 3rd place.
I ... "would be a bit disappointed with that".
holidaysong is correct. We can be separated by points, but it's not our 21 overall points that have any bearing. Our 21 overall points and overall goal difference aren't even tertiary criteria in dictating who finishes where when two or more teams finish on the same number of points. Essentially what finishing on an even number of overall points does is create a mini-league of two or three teams depending on how many finished on the same number of overall points. All results against those teams dictate the standing within that mini table. If we finish even on overall points with Slovakia alone, we'll finish ahead of them, but if we finish even with Slovakia and Russia on overall points after drawing with Russia, we'll be bottom of that trio.
I posted up the tie-breaking criteria here. That was taking from the Wiki wording which I've double-checked is in the competition's regulations.
This will demonstrate what I mean. It's a version of Wikipedia's Euro 2012 qualifying page from before yesterday's set of games. Although the Group B table is updated as it is currently because it's an embedded template, the tie-breaker table is as it was when ourselves, Russia and Slovakia were all sitting on 13 overall points. From it, you can see that we were sitting third out of the three despite having a superior goal difference to Slovakia in the overall table.
Code:Team Pld W D L GF GA GD AG Pts Slov. 2 1 1 0 2 1 +1 1 4 Russia 2 1 0 1 3 3 0 3 3 Ireland 2 0 1 1 3 4 −1 1 1Goal difference isn't the primary deciding criterion. Points won in just those head-to-head games is.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 03/09/2011 at 6:11 PM.
Just to post up the tie-breaking criteria again because there appears to be some confusion as to where we would finish if Russia, Slovakia and ourselves all finish the group on 21 points after us having drawn in Moscow. We'd finish third in that scenario. Here are the tie-breaking criteria that would apply in such a scenario:
They can be found in article 7.04 of the Regulations of the UEFA European Football Championship 2010-12.If two or more teams are equal on points on completion of the group matches, the following criteria are applied to determine the rankings.
- Higher number of points obtained in the group matches played among the teams in question
- Superior goal difference from the group matches played among the teams in question
- Higher number of goals scored in the group matches played among the teams in question
- Higher number of goals scored away from home in the group matches played among the teams in question
- If, after applying criteria 1) to 4) to several teams, two or more teams still have an equal ranking, the criteria 1) to 4) will be reapplied to determine the ranking of these teams. If this procedure does not lead to a decision, criteria 6) and 7) will apply
- Results of all group matches:
- Superior goal difference
- Higher number of goals scored
- Higher number of goals scored away from home
- Fair play conduct
- Drawing of lots
Let's wait oul 6 o'clock on Tuesday before we worry about this.
See, I think the possible permutations are crucial to how we should approach the game in Moscow. I don't think settling for a mere clean sheet or a draw at any point will be enough for us as it relinquishes responsibility and control over our own fate. Surely depending on results going against Slovakia and Russia isn't an option. Plus, there's then the highly likely scenario of us all finishing with 21 overall points and us being ranked third. That would be a devastating pill to swallow. For those reasons, I think going for three points in Moscow is the only option we have now. Is that a "knee-jerk" or "gung-ho" attitude? I don't really think it is. The game really is that crucial. I see it as a "cup final" all-or-nothing type of affair now. Of course, the other benefit of actually going all out for the win in Moscow is that a victory would pretty much secure top spot in the group for us.
I think my primary fear is that Trap will set out for a 0-0. It is possible we could still qualify with such a result, but I think it's an unacceptable risk to take.
You say he is a confidence player. Well it won't help his confidence if his teammates don't pass to him - which they don't, unless it's an absolute last resort. Just watching the game back, and Doyle, Ward, Whelan and St. Ledger all chose not to pass to McGeady during the first half, when it seemed that it would have been the sensible option. On a couple of occasions, McGeady was in clear space, yet, they chose not to involve him. This suggests to me a clear and obvious lack of belief in McGeady's ability on the part of his teammates.
Jesus Danny, I wrote in one sentence what took you 3 pages
That suggests to me that we did not have the semblance of a passing game, even when a player is free in space.
Some of this took place during the first 15 minutes, when we were keeping it on the floor.
So we were keeping it on the floor for a few minutes and had a semi-passing game going.
ok so we are ****ed then if we don't win on Tuesday.
Why? nicking a point over Moscow isn't even that big a deal because because knowing our luck Slovakia-Russia will be a draw (Slovakia beat Armenia & Macedonia 1-0 with 95th minute goals in both games) so we all end up on 21 points resulting us finishing 3rd.
"If God had meant football to be played in the air, he'd have put grass in the sky." Brian Clough.
You'll NEVER beat the Irish.......you'll just draw with us instead!!!
Exactly. I never ever think of permutations for Ireland games as I always believe our first priority should be to win the game.
If we fail to win on Tuesday we should them consider the permutations. No point concerning ourselves with the triviality of it beforehand.
I'm also hungover and hungry so I don't have the concentration levels to consider anything other than a fried egg and tea.
In my opinion, based on this one crucial scenario, I feel the argument of going 'gung ho' for a win isn't worth it. A draw is quite valuable. Obviously not as good as a win, but it can't be dismissed entirely.
Usually he'd get into good positions, skillfully round his marker, position to prepare to unleash either a cross or a shot and then 90% of the time produce the end product of the crowd having their head in their hands. He does actually have very good control, it was just off last night. Positionally he was forced back to cover Wards ineptness all night so didn't see the ball very much in attacking areas. I'd still start him against Russia if Trap devises a plan to sort out the LB area, if he plays the same gameplan again the Russians will target Ward all night long and McGeady will be forced backwards again to bail him out. Theres just no point playing McGeady if thats his primary job, there are better defensive wide players out there.
The lesson there is:
Ireland without Kilbane is not an Ireland we want to see.
mcgeady behind a lone front man is something i'd be interested to see if trap insists on playing two CMs with no creativity in future.
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