We missed Fahey tonight, even as an option off the bench.
I was fuming when going home and heard Keane on the radio whinging that Slovakia set up for the draw..
Some of the comments here are bemusing to say the least. I can't comment on performances as I don't watch the Republic's matches most of the time but judging purely on results Trappatoni is doing a fine job. Before tonight you were top of your group which contains Slovakia who made the last 16 of the World Cup just gone and Russia who have a massive pool of players, a far better domestic league, and a top manager and usually qualify for stuff. Ireland on the other hand have not qualified for anything since 2002. Until Trappatoni came along you had also not made the play-offs since that campaign.
I realise a 0-0 draw can be exceptionally dull, dire, and frustrating, but at the end of the day results are what matter. I'd take boring football if it meant we could defend and keep clean sheets. We play 'passing football', but it's not playing to our strengths, and can be equally dire as a 0-0 with boring long-ball guff. We have a similar set of players to you - a smattering of quality players, Premiership journeymen and Championship players who are not quite good enough at the very top level. However, Trappatoni undoubtedly gets results out of your lot whereas we have plummeted to 117th. I know we won tonight but we still look set to finish bottom of the group.
Bottom line, in my opinion, you'd be mad to sack Trappatoni. Just my opinion.
"Life is like a hair on a toilet seat. Sooner or later you are bound to get pi$$ed off."
"In this league, a draw is sometimes as good as a win" - Steve Morison
We missed Fahey tonight, even as an option off the bench.
I was fuming when going home and heard Keane on the radio whinging that Slovakia set up for the draw..
You've got no fans.
Every game, even against sides we should beat fairly comfortably, we set out like we're Accrington Stanley away at Old Trafford. It's incredibly frustrating to watch. If we qualify then fine, it'll be worth it. However, if we're not qualifying, I'd rather see Ireland play a bit of football and at least give the supporters something to cheer about.Originally Posted by Cymro
No need to remind me.Just to remind you on that I tipped Hungary to beat SwedenPity we didn't get the 3 points as we would have been fancied to get the best 2nd spot. But it's not over until it's over. Now we will be more of a loose cannon in Russia rather than satisfied with a draw.
It would actually be amazing if we went out to Russia all guns blazing and came home with three points after playing like we did in the play-off in Paris. In a way, maybe this is a blessing in disguise as such a scenario would almost certainly win us the group, but I wouldn't put a bet on it.
If that's what they were doing, they weren't making a good job of it at all. They nearly bloody won the thing!
So what. It was up to Keane and the lads to do something about it.
You've got no fans.
It's inaccurate, if not meaningless, in so far as each team hasn't played the same fixtures as the next. In the head-to-head table, for example, we would have been third.
Indeed, results matter and drawing is better than losing, but drawing games doesn't get you to major championships either. It's questionable as to whether we even deserved to draw tonight's game.I realise a 0-0 draw can be exceptionally dull, dire, and frustrating, but at the end of the day results are what matter.
I think you misinterpreted. I'm in complete agreement with you. It was a ridiculous thing for Robbie to say is what I meant. Slovakia looked more like winning (or actually playing) than we ever did, so how he can accuse them of setting out for the 0-0 draw confuses me. If they were trying to come away with a scoreless draw, they certainly showed no signs of it.
They were all over us for long stretches so I dunno what game he was watching, and occasionally playing in.
Just got in from the game, haven't had the chance to read the rest of the thread but just wanted to offer some initial, oh, off the top of my head thoughts - we were bad. Rank bad. Rotten bad. There were stink lines eminating from half our team. We were lucky to get a point. Doyle's never played poorer for us. McGeady was finished mentally after 48 minutes and how Trap kept him there until the 84th minute when the more humane thing would've been to put him out of his misery, I'll never know. Andrews was 'eh?!?! Is he a footballer?!' bad. But he wasn't the only one...
Ward and Sledge were our best players.
I'm pretty gutted. We were lucky to get a point. I thought the level we were playing at - like a bunch of people who didn't appear to have met before, never mind being a squad which has been together for about two years - was bizarre. Misplaced passes, bad communication, no leadership, sloppy cheap instances of constantly giving the ball way - it was beyond the technical limitations of our team, it was a mentality problem.
Personally I thought we maybe went into the game overconfident then got surprised, and subsequently totally frustrated, that Slovakia bossed us. But that's just a hypothesis. We were so dire and lifeless it's simply not funny.
Vent over.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
Pitiful performance.
In from a sess so will post tomorrow but McGeady, Andrews, Whelan & the Trap will be crucified. If you cannot pass a football when your a pro footballer.....
Didn't realise we're going to miss Sledge in Russia now. It gets better and better. Staying positive, he was the difference between us being alive or dead for qualification imo.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
Some baffling comments on here. Especially regarding Doyle and Ward. Doyle put in ten times the work that Keane did and got hauled off for his trouble. I thought Ward did really well considering it was his first competitive start. In the last campaign we struggled to break teams down at home but had more success away, hopefully we can get something Tuesday.
I agree with you on Ward, but not on Doyle. I thought he looked a little off the pace, and his link-up play with Keane and Duff was poor. Keane and Duff, in particular the second half, put together a couple of decent moves but Doyle didn't really link up with anybody all that well. Things didn't really stick for him. He got through his usual amount of work but it just wasn't as effective as usual imo. And to be fair to Keane, I thought he worked very, very hard, including knicking balls off defenders, while remaining a goal threat. He should've buried that header though. Doyle meanwhile didn't get a sniff at goal, whereas Cox was getting in the right areas and had a couple of chances.
Doyle's still a favorite of mine, I just don't think he played well this evening.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
Just had a look and we are creeping up the table of best 2nd place teams...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2012_qualifying
and Norway and Sweden will definitely both drop points before the curtain falls in October if you look at their schedules.
Plus we are now ahread of Slovakia if we finish level on points because of the away goal - yes, that's how it works. Even if we lose in Moscow and Russia also beat Slovakia, we still stay ahead of Slovakia (assuming 6pts against Andorra and Armenia for us). Still looking good for 2nd place, maybe even best 2nd placer...
Doyle and McGeady clearly weren't 100%. If we'd had Long fit or seen a bit more of Hunt (bad call, Trap, 7 minutes was a bit pointless), I think we would have won the game. Defenders were solid, Ward and O'Shea did actually get forward a bit.
Still, 0-0 against a decent side and still in it. Roll on Tuesday and down with the booers and leave-early merchants.
I agree in principle but I think focusing on the centre midfield (dire though they were) is giving a free pass to the rest. There were numerous times during the game where O'Shea or Duff would get the ball and people would just run away from him. There were other times when Andrews had the ball and Whelan was standing in acres of space but was directly between an opposition player and the ball. The players just aren't making the runs to get on the ball. Even Duff and McGeady were guilty of it. There just seems to be a lack of courage to take the football in this team: Richard Dunne has it, Duff, McGeady and Keane have it, but too many other players don't, even Doyle.
I think Ward and McGeady both had poor games today but I think they have an understanding that Duff and O'Shea don't have. Ward was sucked in continually in defence, but McGeady was always there to cover; likewise, Ward made some great attacking runs that Kilbane would never make, and one more than one occasion Doyle and McGeady just weren't looking for him. I saw in Ward tonight all the criticisms I've had of him in the past - he gets sucked in a lot and leaves loads of space - but he covered our centre halves well and made intelligent runs forward.
I honestly think we have the players to play a better style of football but they just lack the confidence to do it. I'm wondering if bringing up players like Clifford, McCarthy and Brady from the U21s might be the tonic we need. They'll make loads of mistakes but at least they'll have the confidence to make them.
I agree with a lot of that. I think tonight a lot of guys were hiding, and not displaying the kind of courage and mentality that I want to see in this Irish team.
Which leads me on to Ward - it's interesting some people saw him as having a poor game, from where I was I thought he was largely really very good and one of the few positives. However in retrospect I likely glossed over some of his defensive lapses and he certainly gave the ball away cheaply a few times (though I think that was true of every single player).
But the reason I glossed over those things is simple - Ward demanded possession. Constantly. He was our defence's only out ball, beyond hoofing, and he always pushed the ball forward and at pace. He did it for 90 minutes and he did it when more senior players refused to show for it, or when they did show for the ball only did so to pass it sideways. Ward wanted the ball all the time and he was the only Irish player who really possessed the ball with tempo. For an inexperienced player, I think he deserves a lot of credit for that (his defensive blocks and tackles also deserve plaudits).
Contrast that with those Ward was trying to link directly with - McGeady, whose confidence and legs were shot after 50 minutes and then subsequently drifted inside to hide, and Andrews, who was basically doing a 'Gibson' only he shot far less and gave the ball away more.
BTW I like Andrews but he's starting to become this team's ultimate enigma - one game he's great, snapping into tackles, playing neat passes, scoring screamers and the next he can't hit a ball five yards to a teammate and turns down umpteen attempts at goal to shovel the ball sideways...
Last edited by SwanVsDalton; 03/09/2011 at 1:29 AM.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
Yes you are right about it only being 2 from 9, I thought we beat Slovakia away but it was a draw, however it was a score draw so that puts
us above them if we are tied on points. It's all in the balance, I expect Russia will get their revenge on Slovakia and take 3 points off them
That leaves them with only 6 points available in tricky fixtures, I doubt they will get 6 points, they may struggle to get 4 and 2 is possible.
Armenia is a team we are all over looking, they may well come into the mix they are top scorers and are joint top on goal difference.
We should take 6 points from our remaining games, Slovakia then need 7 or 9, and that's a tall order.
If we take 6 points I am sure we will finish second, Andorra should be a formality, that leaves Armenia and that is the must win game for us,
a defeat in Russia probably will not matter, anything we get their will be a bonus.
That's the theory anyway the reality is the problem.
Slovakia have no need to better our results if Russia also finish on equal points with us. For example, if we draw against Russia and win our other two, they draw against Russia and win their other two and Russia win their other fixture, we'll all finish on 21 points with us in third position. That's a fairly likely scenarios, which is why I think we should go for it in Moscow and keep it within our own hands.
Why would we be 3rd? Our current goal difference is 3+ better than Slovakia. If we draw then I believe its still in our own hands. If we draw and win our remaining 2 remaining games against Andorra and Armenia then we should be virtually guaranteed 2nd. The only way we could be caught is if Slovakia draws with Russia and makes up 3+ goals against Armenia and Macedonia which is fairly unlikely. We shouldn't play for the draw but I'd definitely take a draw on Tuesday.
If we finish on an equal number of points with Slovakia alone, we'll be ranked ahead of them due to our superior head-to-head results with just them by virtue of our away goal scored in Slovakia. However, if both ourselves and Slovakia also finish on the same number of points as Russia, such a scenario gives rise to a sort of mini league table of three where head-to-head results between the three teams dictate the deciding standings. Goal difference is a secondary concern and goal difference from other games outside of the tie-breaking table has even less of a bearing. If, for the sake of argument, the table as it stood two days ago was the final standing, we'd actually have been ranked third out of the three teams on 13 points as our 1 point from the games with Russia and Slovakia would have been inferior to Russia's 3 points and Slovakia's 4 points from the head-to-head games.
Here are the tie-breaking criteria in order of importance:
The reality is that if we draw against Russia on Tuesday, qualification is out of our hands. We'll finish on 21 points if we go on to win our remaining two games. That guarantees absolutely nothing, however, and I fear it will give rise to a particularly heart-breaking scenario where we finish third on equal points with the group winner and the runner-up as a result of a tie-breaker.If two or more teams are equal on points on completion of the group matches, the following criteria are applied to determine the rankings:
- Higher number of points obtained in the group matches played among the teams in question
- Superior goal difference from the group matches played among the teams in question
- Higher number of goals scored in the group matches played among the teams in question
- Higher number of goals scored away from home in the group matches played among the teams in question
- If, after applying criteria 1) to 4) to several teams, two or more teams still have an equal ranking, the criteria 1) to 4) will be reapplied to determine the ranking of these teams. If this procedure does not lead to a decision, criteria 6) and 7) will apply
- Results of all group matches:
- Superior goal difference
- Higher number of goals scored
- Higher number of goals scored away from home
- Fair play conduct
- Drawing of lots
Let's say we draw with Russia on Tuesday for the following scenarios. If Slovakia are to also draw with Russia and win their remaining two games, with Russia winning their game against Andorra after drawing with us, we'll all finish on 21 points and have to be separated by a tie-breaking table. We'll be the worst of the three in that table with our total of 3 head-to-head points compared to Slovakia's 6 and Russia's 5. Goal difference would only come into play if those tallies were identical.
If Slovakia win all three of their games and Russia beat only Andorra after drawing with us, Slovakia will top the group with 23 points, whilst Russia will finish third on 20 with us in second on 21, but that's us relying on Slovakia to beat them.
If Slovakia lose to Russia but win their other two games and Russia go on to beat Andorra as well as having beaten Slovakia and drawn with us, Slovakia will finish third on 20 points and Russia will top the group on 23. Likewise, us finishing second there relies on Russia beating Slovakia.
And in both of those latter scenarios, the best we can hope for if other results go as you might expect and neither Slovakia or Russia are to falter is the play-offs. Thus, I think settling for a draw is too much of a risk and a relinquishing of control over our own destiny. We can decide that we're off to Poland/Ukraine on Tuesday and I hope that's how we approach it. (That's assuming we take 6 from the final two games; if we're dropping points to either Armenia at home or Andorra, we may as well give up football.)
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 03/09/2011 at 4:54 AM.
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