Labour Ministers

[culloty82]

Ruairi Quinn has been the best performer so far, clearly knows what he wants to achieve, and is prepared to face down opposition. Joan Burton, similarly is striking a balance between savings through fraud reduction and maintaining welfare level. That's as good as it gets however, as Brendan Howlin is doing little different to what a FG Reform Minister would have done, with low-wage earners and hospital departments facing more cuts than executive pay and quangoes, Pat Rabbitte largely silent since the election and Eamon Gilmore has given little indication of what he wants his party to achieve in government.

[thebooboys]

I agree with criticism of Eamon Gilmore. I feel he along with most of Labour were just so desperate to get into power that little thought has gone into what they would do once they got there. Ruairi Quinn has been busy, I think Brennan Howlin had done reasonably well too but I feel sorry for the Labour Ministers in particular who have a very tough task ahead of them

[Eminence Grise]

Good points. It strikes me that some of the ministers, not just Labour (but especially Howlin), have gone native very quickly - they use the same type of convoluted civil servant speak as previous governments that bears no resemblence to any recognised variation of English.

I hope Quinn can do something to sort out education which needs root and branch reform. (I'm fed up getting MA students who can't write or think for themselves after 13 years of spoonfeeding at primary and post-primary. Baby Sis is an NT, and she's practically crying for the 3Rs to become the central focus of education.) Quinn has the drive to leave a lasting legacy if he can take on all the interest groups at the same time. Burton has been quietly impressive.

[dahamsta]

Quinn is a model of what we should be expecting to see and hear from government ministers, and I use those words advisedly. He's out there every day a) doing something, and b) telling us about it. There's very few in the current government behaving comparably. Bizarrely, as much as I dislike him, Varadker is about as close as you could get atm.

The rest of them seem to be just more of the same.

Gilmore was a terrible leader before the election, he's a terrible leader now, and he'll continue to be a terrible leader into the future. I'm sure they'll continue to work with him under the illusion that he's responsible for their victory, but we all know they have FF to thank for that. They need to toss Gilmore out on his ear and move back to the Left if they want to stay where they are. If they continue in the vein they are - with the aforementioned exceptions of course - they'll go the way of the PDs, the Greens...

[thebooboys]

I agree with you that they need to push more left to curb a potential rise for SF and the ULA. However its extremely difficult to "toss" a leader such as Gilmore after (A) securing a record seat count for his party and (B) possibly helping in the election of a Labour President in Michael D.

[Lim till i die]

I cannot stand Comrade Gilmore, the very definition of a greasy pole climber he will literally say or do anything to gain and maintain a grip on power.



I think in the medium term there's going to be some difficult times ahead for Labour as a party, there isn't a hope of them doing a necessary shuffle to the left with the head honchos they have.

[bennocelt]

I agree with you that they need to push more left to curb a potential rise for SF and the ULA. However its extremely difficult to "toss" a leader such as Gilmore after (A) securing a record seat count for his party and (B) possibly helping in the election of a Labour President in Michael D.

Tsk That election where FF did so bad that even a fool like Gilmore (and Kenny) cud get their party a good result. Gilmore is a joke of a leader and as Dahamsta said labour need to get back to the left sometime soon.

[Macy]

Far too early to tell, imo, on any Government Minister. Those that are being quiet could be doing great stuff in the background for all we know (or not). I'll give them until mid term at least to be honest. Most of the thread so far has been confirming prejudices.

Having said all that and for what it's worth and to respond to some of the earlier posts, I've been a bit disappointed in Quinn. He hasn't gone nearly far enough for me on National Schools, and all he has done is establish talking shops so far. Very little actual decisions on schools, on reorganising training etc. Bruton too, has scope for massive reform of the social welfare system, and (understandably given such a short time in office) has messed around the edges.

However, I still think it's far too early to tell and make judgements on Government performance. They've 14 years of mess to clear up, and little financial scope to do it. God knows what hidden bombs the FF traitors left on top of the ones we can see. If I made a judgement on Varadker's performance so far, for example, it would be based as much on my preconceptions as earlier posts are about Labour Ministers.

And I know I commented on the Independents/ Smaller Parties thread, but they don't have whole departments to get to grip with and decisions to make like Government Ministers.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I hope Quinn can do something to sort out education which needs root and branch reform. (I'm fed up getting MA students who can't write or think for themselves after 13 years of spoonfeeding at primary and post-primary. Baby Sis is an NT, and she's practically crying for the 3Rs to become the central focus of education.) Quinn has the drive to leave a lasting legacy if he can take on all the interest groups at the same time. Burton has been quietly impressive.

I'm veering a little OT EG but I'm genuinely interested in where your sister, as a frontline educator, sees the neccessary cuts in other subject areas coming from to put the central focus on the 3Rs. I work in the education sector myself and there are serious moves afoot to bring about the focus you refer to. ALAS all I'm hearing by way of proposals is trim PE, Science/nature studies, Geography and History, slash art and do away with music and drama. There is not so much as a nodding, tacit acknowledgment of the two huge elephants in the room -Gaeilge and ESPECIALLY Religious Education.
I recently encountered a undergraduate primary teacher who at the end of 2nd Year B.Ed. in what is still the 3 year teaching degree your sister would've done had received nine (9) contact hours/lectures in science. In the same 2 years of college that student had received 48 hours of lectures in R.E. -a subject that technically isn't even on the curriculum and another 48 hours at very least in Gaeilge -which of course is.
There is simply no will within the system itself or those that wield power therein to tackle this and in truth -it's not even seen as a problem. The problem is seen as the "waste of time/friday afternoon" arts subjects I mentioned.

[Macy]

There is simply no will within the system itself or those that wield power therein to tackle this and in truth -it's not even seen as a problem. The problem is seen as the "waste of time/friday afternoon" arts subjects I mentioned.

I'm not an insider (to that part of the education system at least), but is that not a consequence of the exemption from equality legislation? Teachers can't argue for less religion in schools, when they can be sacked for not conforming to the ethos of the school. Circa 98% of schools are religious controlled (92% Catholic). Similarly - and ignoring for now allegations of Dept of Educations sympathies (and "worse") to the Catholic Church - to avoid responsibility in abuse cases they've argued that each school is effectively a separate, so do they have the power or will to push for a reduction in such circumstances?

I actually think there is a role for RE in schooling, along the educate together lines, rather than the more common indoctrination. However, sacrament preparation should not be taking place during teaching hours (or monthly schools masses).

First thing Quinn should've done was remove the exemptions to equality legislation that schools enjoy, and at least take away the (real or imagined) fear of teachers losing their jobs for not conforming in a situation where faith schools are so dominant.

[Lionel Ritchie]

The crucial bit in the sentence you quote from me Macy is "those that wield power therein" -that is those that actually design and dictate the content of the curriculum, how it's to be delivered and the weightings of the various subjects. Teachers themselves will have as many varying views as you'll find in any other walk of life but I'm sure many would say their feedback and attempts to inform the design of the curriculum and of it's delivery usually fall on deaf, unwelcoming or downright hostile ears ...and those ears don't always belong to a guy in black with a halterneck white collar either.

Incidently -a staggering amount of time is allocated to sacrament preparation in schools and this notion non-catholics are facilitated is a fallacy. While some parents don't want their kids exposed to this I personally don't have a problem with my lad learning about what his neighbours profess to believe and his friends are being brought up to believe. But if I did my only recourse would be to call to the school before the teacher starts into it, remove him from the class and mind him myself for the duration. I think that's very, very wrong but it's the way it is everywhere here.

But anyway - I think I just managed to draw this off-topic discussion into an off-off-topic discussion.

[dahamsta]

Far too early to tell, imo, on any Government Minister.

I agree, and I'm not writing anyone off. However I'm far from encouraged on the majority. Doing stuff in the background isn't a valid excuse imho. If stuff is being done in the background, tell us about it. If you can't tell us about it, tell us why. If you can't tell us why, tell us you can't tell us why. Et cetera.

[Eminence Grise]

Adam, if you don't stop making perfect sense I'll have to get you in as a guest lecturer to my political communication classes in September!!

BTW, do you want to hive the education posts into a new thread? I'll hold off replying to LR unless you're OK with the new direction of the thread.

[dahamsta]

I only make perfect sense a very, very small portion of the time. If you saw how I behaved myself on other sites, you'd laugh.

It's a young thread, it can wander a little.

[Eminence Grise]

Right-oh, so!

LR, first off, my sister works in a girls’ junior school, so it may differ from your experience.
PE doesn’t feature as strongly there as it could. She’s big into ICT, and reckons that that could free up time in the classroom if it’s properly used. Unfortunately her school doesn’t really have the resources for it...

Religion is the big waste of time – in a classroom rather than ideological or faith sense. She’d rather see RI taken out of hours, using school facilities, perhaps, but community rather than teacher led. But it’s not something she’d like to be overheard saying in the staffroom...

Irish does take up time, but neither she nor I begrudge that, but agree it should be taught conversationally so it’s natural. You could reduce the formal hours spent on the language by doubling up and teaching some non-core subjects like PE or drama through Irish in a more lived, experiential way. That might make Irish fun though, and where’s the sense of that?

There is a third elephant in the corner: the length of the teaching year. 160 odd days is too short. There has to be room for an extra few days somewhere – shave a fortnight off the summer hols, a few days at Easter, or midterm breaks maybe.

Is there a elephant for the fourth corner? Parents, maybe? My sister says some are very supportive, both of their children and the school, but for a variety of reasons - some good, some not - others have a very peripheral impact on their children’s education. That's not something any minister for education, no matter how good, is going to be able to resolve.

[Spudulika]

One comment on the Labour Ministers before education calls - Quinn and Burton have made decent starts, Gilmore is protecting his lead, along with Howlin. Varadkar, despite my dislike for the man, is vocal, open but in danger of being a mouthpiece - ok, he's FG but one of the few Ministers active. In the times we live in the activity of Ministers and politicians is far more valuable and productive than them making plans and sitting in meeting rooms. Getting in the public view is going to at least give a little hope and in the short-medium term bring a bit of energy into the country.

In 2000 I worked for half a term in a Primary School in a difficult spot of Dundalk. I was supposed to continue teaching there for the following year and be supported to take a post grad in Pats with the view to being made permanent. It ended almost 3 weeks before the end of term to facilitate the daughter of a golf buddy of the Head who (through being signed up for the following year) got her holiday pay to travel to the US. Conditions in the school were tough and the curriculum left alot to be desired. The greatest problem I found was simple literacy skills. RE I did in passing though I can see a place for it, but more as a stepping stone for Secondary School to explore other religions and beliefs. Irish can improve if, as EG mentioned, it can be used for PE or Drama, make it come alive a little. I found that many younger teachers are so bored with Irish that they don't teach it with any gusto in school. One issue that I will always bring up is that there is a lack of male teachers in Primary education. It's always explained in general terms as to why there are not more, though I feel that this is something which is having profound effects on younger generations. Though I'd daren't mention gender quotas for fear of being called sexist.

In 2005 I came back to Ireland while my work contracts were being sorted out, not wishing to idle away my time I took a job as a support teacher in my local secondary school. It's a rough spot in D15 and has its fair share of problems, however the majority of the teaching staff were excellent and the most amazing people you'd ever wish to work with. However.....I began just to look after one young lad who couldn't be taught in the mainstream class and to give catch up classes to students from countries whose languages I spoke. I got more hours, was happy, and was given more to look after free classes. I was pretty shocked by what I saw in the main stream, on one side of the classroom it was all white, on the other all black. A few Eastern Europeans sat in the middle and there was an tense atmosphere alot of the time due to lack of english language skills on non-Irish born students. I noticed a pattern for some of the frees, especially 1 or 2 of the older school teachers who used their sick days to avoid their weekly jaunts into the tower of babel for which they'd no training or interest in tackling.

I spoke with the 3 Deputies and Head of the school, who were the best in the world, and they came back with - we've been requesting a program to deal with this, nabbed some funds to do an ad hoc all inclusive art project, but nothing is there. Teachers were largely hamstrung in dealing with any racial/cultural difficulties by the fear of the racist tag being stuck on them. I saw this first hand and from contact with teachers there now, it hasn't gone away.

However the most shocking element of all was the shockingly poor standard of english from the local kids. Spelling was atttrocious for most, even the brightest and best, putting together a solid essay for the top stream was difficult for the most part, and even the expected levels for exams were so low. I spoke with friends who teach full time about this and they said it's not so unusual and (as EG said) they're being coddled out of school and into University with poorly managed and developed skills.

To clean up the system is going to be a nightmare. The basics are there and the quality of teachers also. However how can young teachers manage to develop securely when they can't get permanent contracts and there are malingerers hanging on until retirement? I'm not just blaming teachers or the system, in fact I don't know where to start in how the government can overhaul it. I just know that as bad as it may be in Ireland it is far better than in many other countries, though it's no great comfort. The one thing is that at least you can't purchase your education in Ireland.

[Macy]

In 2000 I worked for half a term in a Primary School in a difficult spot of Dundalk. I was supposed to continue teaching there for the following year and be supported to take a post grad in Pats with the view to being made permanent. It ended almost 3 weeks before the end of term to facilitate the daughter of a golf buddy of the Head who (through being signed up for the following year) got her holiday pay to travel to the US.

Just asking spud, but were you not actually a qualified teacher? That's fairly damning of the system at the time, if you weren't. Not trying to downgrade skills you may have, you may be the best teacher in the world, but I'd hope that the system has moved on from that situation now where unqualified teachers are tolerated - we were told it has when the amount of unqualified teachers was revealed a few years ago, but as every school is fiefdom of the board of management I wouldn't be sure. And it's the fact that each school is independent that they can get away with the later issue.

[Spudulika]

Just asking spud, but were you not actually a qualified teacher? That's fairly damning of the system at the time, if you weren't. Not trying to downgrade skills you may have, you may be the best teacher in the world, but I'd hope that the system has moved on from that situation now where unqualified teachers are tolerated - we were told it has when the amount of unqualified teachers was revealed a few years ago, but as every school is fiefdom of the board of management I wouldn't be sure. And it's the fact that each school is independent that they can get away with the later issue.

I held/hold an equivalent qualification from abroad, had teaching experience and as a result could legally teach in Ireland. The problem was I could never be made full time without the Irish language part of the Primary cert (students qualified from the North have this too). I've never met an unqualified teacher, there was always a surplus of teachers for posts, though there were many on rolls that were dreadful (Primary) and should not have been there and at secondary level too many who were out of touch and should have been pensioned off or sacked. However the unions are strong and what's more important is that teachers can get long term contracts rather than the students have educators in front of them. FYI, I certainly wouldn't be the best teacher in the world, or eevn in the classroom, though it was something I loved doing, though 3rd level is a whole lot easier at times.

[Macy]

Teachers without a teaching qualification at all, rather than missing Irish and/or music, was quite a big problem a few years ago until the Unions got on the case. Even now, excuses are made for having unqualified people rather than subs, despite the numbers of qualified teachers without work.

[Eminence Grise]

Even now, excuses are made for having unqualified people rather than subs, despite the numbers of qualified teachers without work.

And that's just unacceptable. Same with retired teachers, with full service, teaching a few hours each week. Sure, they might have great experience, but they're blocking new teachers getting a foot on the ladder. I started off ten years ago teaching 3 hours a week in a CFE, 1 in an IT, grubbing around for hours here and there, and everything grew from that.

Picking up something Spud mentioned about the quality of young teachers. They have the theory alright, and an awful lot are very dedicated, but they're also coming through the same education system that doesn't develop writing skills, or grammar or analytical/thinking skills. Baby Sis - who is an amazing teacher! - was doing an application form a few weeks ago, and asked me to have a look over it; it was easy to know she had done the Junior Cert, while - dinosaur that I am - I'd done the Inter Cert.... If the new teachers perpetuate the education system that has developed over the last 15-20 years it will be difficult to achieve the kind of reforms that are needed.

There should also be a minimum standard of education required to teach at all levels: 3 years study to teach primary, 1 to teach secondary - all well and good. But there's no requirement for further ed (which technically doesn't formally exist here) and third level - my levels. Let's face it, being a subject specialist means diddly squat for teaching ability.