The case for a National Academy

[Charlie Darwin]

Yes, new sides would need to be created and the above mentioned academy would be used to feed these new clubs. Granted opposition would be strong from the LOI teams, but being brutually honest how exactly are they helping Irish players develop presently?

You mean apart from producing several first team and reserve players for the national team?

[gastric]

You mean apart from producing several first team and reserve players for the national team?

I suggest you read my first post on this before judging the second!

[Charlie Darwin]

That doesn't really clear anything up though. There's no reason why Irish clubs wouldn't support a national academy - they'd be the main beneficiaries of it.

[the bear]

Bonnie,
Thanks for setting up the thread and to those who have contributed to it.

The first point I feel I need to make is how bizarre it is that we as a country let 15 year olds sign up for English and Scottish teams. What other industry would let this happen? We take it for granted and wish them the best of luck and when it doesn't work out what happens then? I only know of one player who 'when the dream ended' had people give him a hard time in the pub. The point I am making is that these young people should be not allowed leave until they are at least 18 which is normal in society. I know there are support systems etc in place, but it still is weird that this occurs.

The second point I want to make is that we need a uniform approach to coaching starting from 5 year olds upwards. We also need to decide what sort of football we want to play keeping in mind our strengths and weaknesses. A uniform approach and a vision would help in preparing players of the future too.

In regards to a National Academy, the idea is excellent and could build on my second point above. Any player entering it would share a common philosophy of how the game is to be played. The weakness I feel in this idea is why would the FAI as the major shareholder in such a project be interested if all we did was feed players to English clubs? The LOI clubs would certainly and rightly so not support such a venture. Therefore the only way forward be for us to join or create our own Celtic League.
Let's be honest the Scottish Premier League is and will always be a two horse race and the entry of maybe three Irish teams possibly two from us and one from NI would help reinvigorate the competition, but you get the idea hopefully. Yes the teams might have to start off in Division Two, but it would certainly create interest. Yes, there will be much opposition from Scottish teams which to be honest I don't how you counter, but in terms of UEFA opposition it is about time the EU which wants to control everything looked at the issues in Irish soccer - young people leaving home at a young age and how this problem can be alleviated.
Through such a proposal, this academy could feed these clubs and then when these players are at a mature age like Doyle, Coleman and Long, they could make the move to England if wanted by clubs there.

I know there are many issues with my ideas, what happens to the LOI teams, Scottish and UEFA opposition to such a plan, but I feel it is one way forward and would mean many young people would not have to leave home at a very young age.

i really think the celtic league idea is the best way to go about it, the success in the rugby has been huge and almost instant. as i was saying in the shane long section i think for the academy idea to be fully efective they should be academies set up in regional clubs where the product of the academy go on to represent irish clubs. If this wasn't the case i could see our national academy, being basically a place where our most talented players are brought and our more or less on trial straight and will be snapped up by english clubs and end up honing there skills in that clubs academy anyway.

what incentive would a 15 year old have in staying in our academy and rejecting the interest of say man u, with no contract or top level footballing future available from the FAI on completing the academy course?

i realise as gastric said there are going to be a lot of arguements against this sort of league as in taking uefa places away from the LOI and basically undermining that whole league. but i think for ireland to really progress to where we want it be as a footballing nation this is the path to go on.

what nations do you think could amalgamate with us, the way i see it

english clubs, not a chance

welsh teams, 2 main cities already have big clubs playing high level near or in epl so a merger wouldn't make sense

scottish clubs, this is more of a possibility as you said maybe celtic, rangers, hibs, hearts ,aberdeen & dundee united

irish , 4 provinces

that would still only leave us with 10 teams, i cant really see it ever being set up to be honest more because i cant see the fai going making it happen. but as stutts pointed out uefa have shown they are open to the idea of leagues merging before (holland / belgium) so you never know

[bennocelt]

Yes, new sides would need to be created and the above mentioned academy would be used to feed these new clubs. Granted opposition would be strong from the LOI teams, but being brutually honest how exactly are they helping Irish players develop presently? In terms of UEFA, they are happy to accomodate teams for political reasons including Derry City and Welsh sides play in England for traditional reasons. The time will come when I believe the EU will challenge the power of UEFA which presently discriminates in favour of the bigger countries and clubs. It is its own cartel of sorts. The transfer market involves massive sums of money and in the current economic situation does not make sense. For me personally, this need to stop youngsters leaving home at a young age should be argument enough for the EU to look at what it can do to solve this issue.

Doyle, Ward and Fahey amongst others
That's never going to happen - get real please
Just need Irish coaches to look towards the continent for ideas rather than learning from British style coaching manuals.

[BonnieShels]

Doyle, Ward and Fahey amongst others
That's never going to happen - get real please
Just need Irish coaches to look towards the continent for ideas rather than learning from British style coaching manuals.

Precisely.

[gastric]

That doesn't really clear anything up though. There's no reason why Irish clubs wouldn't support a national academy - they'd be the main beneficiaries of it.

Why would Irish clubs be the main beneficiaries? On what basis? Players will still leave unless you offer them an opportunity that they feel will benefit their career. Presently that option is to go to England. To make an academy work properly in Ireland you need a strong club competition. I am not in any way trying to run down the LOI, but presently most young players see it as a last option rather than their first.

[Charlie Darwin]

It's not their choice though. The clubs select them if they're good enough.

[Stuttgart88]

Been away for a few years but I had this comforting feeling in the back of my mind that while the lads in the national team, with the exception of three or four, have little or no technical ability, at least the coaches at home were working on correcting that problem. But I guess from reading the posts on here that is not the case. Very troubling indeed to think that for midfield creativity in ten / fifteen years time we'll be looking at young fellas similar to Glenn Whelan and Keith Andrews. Something has to be done by the FAI to fix this poverty in the Irish game.

Well, nobody has answered whether the Technical Development Plan is worthy of the title, and whether it is likely to bear fruit. It's early days yet and the results might not be manifested for a while. So, maybe something is being done to "fix the poverty".

A foot.ie Q&A session with Wim Koevermanns would be interesting. Any chance anyone could arrange this?

Glenn Whelan has very good technique actually.

One economic model could be the Glenn Hoddle Academy. He runs an academy in Spain for "re-threads", 18 year-olds released from the UK club academy system. He gives the players one or two more years of professional training in southern Spain, but the important part is that the GHA has club-like status in that it can command a transfer fee for its players. It's a for profit venture. (I think in the meantime the GHA has actually bought a second- or third-tier club - Jerez? - to showcase its players). Obviously a FAI academy would look at younger players, but if the FAI can profit from selling the best players into the UK system, they can subsidise the LOI with by redistributing profits. Players not sold to the UK (or abroad) can stay in the LOI, if good enough, and their club can benefit.

With regard to kids being transferred abroad, the current FIFA international transfer rules have "protection of minors" clauses contained, including kids' families having to move as well, for non-footballing reasons, and provision of education. It's a real problem for South American kids.

With regard to a "Celtic League", I answered why this may be difficult politically in the Shane Long thread. Not impossible, but it touches on some sensitive issues.


Let's face it, the real reason Irish players leave is because they can earn more money abroad. Would a Celtic League really be that much more viable economically anyway? Would the sponsorship and TV money really come?

An alternative would be for our clubs to somehow just get a bit better and actually make the Europa League group stages, and start earning money that way. If clubs can be seen to be able to earn money then they'll get more investment and - assuming sound financial regulation like the FFPR - then a virtuous cycle could begin.

[gastric]

As I have already mentioned players leave at a young age because they feel there is no other choice. A coordinated junior coaching program, a strong academy and stronger clubs would entice many to stay. I am a bit confused by your post, but hopefully this answers your comment.

[Stuttgart88]

Gastric, the clubs are gradually getting stronger, no?

There is a co-ordinated junior coaching program, no?

Granted, there is no academy.

[gastric]

Stutts, the point I am making is that all three are necessary to ensure success. In terms of the LOI, in what ways do you see it becoming stronger? Player wise, crowd wise, technically or all three?

[ifk101]

Don't have the time to go through the complete thread but there are plans for a national academy. The national academy will form the top tier of underage development. The bottom tier is schoolboy leagues which feed into a middle tier of regional development centres dotted around the country. This structure is already "producing" youth internationals that come from areas of the country not noted as football strongholds.

LOI clubs need to meet certain criteria with regards to youth development. The forms part of club licensing. While speeded up by financial constraints, the current age profile of LOI playing squads is quite low. There are numerous examples of current underage and senior internationals that have come through the ranks of LOI clubs.

[Stuttgart88]

What's the story with the new U19 league?

Gastric, I think the LOI (maybe not all of it) is getting better at managing certain aspects of its "business" - reaching out to local communities for example. I think the quality is inching better, and actually a lot of players that went to the UK are coming back to Ireland now. Keith Quinn is the latest. I went to Tallaght to watch Rovers v UCD when I was home at Easter and really enjoyed the whole package.

Also, you said above that the EU has to challenge UEFA's dominance. As far as I can see it, the EU is actually very sympathetic to the way that european football is configured. The Bosman case showed that this doesn't give UEFA / football carte blanche to operate restrictive practices, but I'm not sure there's much appetite at EU level for US-style closed leagues. My post last night on the Shane Long thread describes this, and I've added external references to support my belief.

Also, just wrt a Celtic League being some sort of panacea. I'm actually not against the idea but I'd only support it if I felt it'd actually achieve something important. It works in rugby because it has created one of the top 4 leagues in world rugby. It appeals to the public because it allows for international class rugby players to strut their stuff week in, week out. It attracts half-decent sponsorship and TV money, and the better players earn wages and endorsements comparable to any other professional league. Maybe there's more €€€ in France, but not for everyone.

What would a Celtic League in football achieve? Would a concentration of Welsh, Scottish and (all) Irish talent make for a better standard? Probably.

Would it lead to a standard so much better that all of a sudden sponsors and broadcasters, not to mention the paying public, would transform the game financially, so that our better (but not our elite, obviously) players would earn a better living in Ireland than in UK? I'm not sure. Maybe the Gary Dickers of this world would have a tough choice to make, but not the Noel Hunts. And in fairness, both of these were Irish "developed" anyway.

There are only so many international class (whatever that is!) footballers a country of 4 million can produce, even if facilities were funded by Bill Gates.

[osarusan]

While I'd agree that sending players back to LOI clubs at 16 or 17 wouldn't be at all ideal in terms of improving them technically (or even maintaining their technical ability), the idea that we could ask UEFA to break up 3 leagues to help us out rather than working on improving the standard of the LOI is something that UEFA probably laugh at. We can go round and round telling each other who's to blame for the way senior domestic football is (the LOI and the FAI must shoulder a lot of the blame as far as I'm concerned), but there's not a single problem with the LOI that can't be solved by money.

And like Stuttgart88, I'd be sceptical that a Celtic league of some kind would ever have the financial clout to keep a significantly higher standard of player at home. Would the standard or wages be near Championship level? The idea that because it worked for rugby, it should work for football, is dangerously simplistic.

[gastric]

Many of the points I have tried to make have got lost due to them being in different posts.

Firstly, I would be happy a few Irish teams played in the Scottish League and as I mentioned before, this would also probably mean they start in the Second Division and worked their way up.
Secondly, a coordinated coaching program, an academy and strong teams would mean more interest and more money. It would also give young players a chance to stay at home and develop their careers. Yes, I know some have done it, but more could and should.

Lastly, as I have already alluded to in a previous post, I strongly believe it is a national disgrace that 15 and 16 year olds feel England is where they have to go to make it in soccer. They often leave as heroes and when they return the 'failed ' tag is attached to them. Remember, for the majority of players the dream doesn't happen. Many are in a difficult situation. Their formative teenager years are spent in England and returning home means many deem them failures. It may sound harsh, but it is fact. If an academy is founded, these students must put their education first, and be taught that their dream may not occur.

Establishing an academy, supported by stronger teams would mean players could stay home until they are young adults before possibly having the opportunity to play abroad. Producing people with good life skills is more important than producing simply footballers.

[mark12345]

KEEP THIS THREAD GOING

This is a discussion which needs to continue. Spread the world, tell your friends etc. If enough people are talking about an academy and demanding the FAI take action (like contract some South American coaches to teach our youngsters real technique, a la the Cuban coaches with the boxers) then hopefully it will happen. This is the path to success, not sending our kids over to England in their droves.

[the bear]

okay, ill humour you that the attractiveness of Welsh teams to the irish public will be the panacaea that cures domestic football but why would we have to regionalise and, i presume, get the Welsh (Nordies and Scots?) to regionalise (akin to Celtic Cup rugby). Wouldnt your plan work just as well without destroying the 121 year history of an institution like Bohemians? Or the 5 year history of those whippersnappers, Shamrock Rovers?

If it is an academy you are after then it should be administered by the FAI and graduates are drafted to the league clubs (like the NFL draft or something). Ive posted on this before at length a while back. Will try and root out the posts at some stage.

I also think this discussion should be removed from this thread by the mods and a new thread created.

yes i think merging say the scottish league with the LOI keeping clubs as they exist would be much better than what we have at the moment.

The reason i suggested regionalising was to create bigger more sustainable teams that would be more likely to achieve success say in europe, and therefore have the ability to keep the best irish talent in this country. i was saying if these big clubs each had there own academy they could provide a serious alternative to 15 year olds that have been approached by epl clubs.

"If it is an academy you are after" ,you hit the nail on the head there , i would not complain about an irish academy in any way shape or form. the thing with the FAI type academy you suggested is i could only see that offering a back up to kids who have not been picked up by english teams which would still be good , but the best result i could hope for would be keeping all the best irish talent in ireland. basically all the best young irish players would get invited to train in the FAI academy, therefore all the english scouts would focus on academy players, the best will be picked up straight away and will go and learn their trade at that english clubs academy.

[hoops1]

Could someone explain what Wim Kovermans is doing? or has done?
I know he had set up like coaching sessions for the top schoolboy players.
Id like to think hes doing more than that for his money

[CraftyToePoke]

Could someone explain what Wim Kovermans is doing? or has done?
I know he had set up like coaching sessions for the top schoolboy players.
Id like to think hes doing more than that for his money

Last time I seen him he was gazing at a GAA complex, resplendent in the evening summer sun with its club house and bar, all weather surfaces, changing rooms, showers, floodlights, indoor facilities and general trimmings and finery.

He took the chocolate and banana Chupa-Choop out of his mouth and says to me '' they didnt tell me about this, no one said a word about this''