The case for a National Academy

**Bungle** · 28/02/2013, 9:20 AM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Bobby Charlton once called Home Farm FC the best soccer nursery in the world.

What a schoolboy club they were!! Bit concerning that Home Farm, Belvo and Cherry Orchard don't seem to be all that well represented in some of our underage sides these days, though in fairness maybe it is partly due to other clubs really coming on.

**Charlie Darwin** · 01/03/2013, 4:39 PM

Possibly because they're supplying players to English academies at younger ages, but also because a lot of players are emerging from clubs in suburban north Dublin rather than the traditional areas around the city. There are still players jumping across from Orchard and Kevin's - most recently Alex O'Hanlon and Jack Byrne - but it's good to see more of a spread. It's also good to see players from the traditional feeder clubs going into the LOI and then making the jump across the water, like Conor Sammon, Enda Stevens and Stephen Quinn.

**squareball** · 02/03/2013, 2:23 PM

A big problem I'd see is that even if the players from Belvedere, Cherry Orchard or who ever wants to stay at home they still have to move clubs. So at 15 or 16 your friends are moving to United, Liverpool or whoever your going to St. Pats or Shamrock Rovers or whoever. You are seen as a failure. If there was a progression from playing youth football to playing LOI with the one club players would feel that they will get their chance if they are good enough. There would be less pressure on players to leave Ireland as they would still be playing at a reasonably high level and would have a bit of loyalty to the club. This would also encourage players to play LOI for last year or two as they would be going back to a club they already played for. Players would know that they will get a contract if they continue improving and would probably avail of a better standard of coaching if the likes of Shamrock Rovers and other LOI teams were given support by the FAI for a couple of years to develop their own players and coaches. You could also have a national academy for the cream of the crop feeding into these clubs too.

I think a Celtic League system would work if done properly. It would probably be a 16 team league starting off with four clubs going from each country. You would need a second and maybe even a third division to feed into the league with the next four from each country going into these. The problem in Ireland would be to spread the clubs going in geographically so that there wouldn't be a concentration of clubs from Dublin which would impact on fan bases. You could have Sligo, Derry, Limerick and Shamrock Rovers in the top division. These clubs would have the most chance of competing as they would get decent crowds and all have decent infrastructure with Limerick using Thomond Park. All the clubs would need to have teams from under 12 up and this would help us produce a better standard of player. Young Irish kids would have something to aim for without moving abroad. Celtic and Rangers would still have a big head-start but we could eventually catch up. In theory a youth league between the teams in a Celtic League would improve the standard of all four national teams. How many Irish lads are playing in Scotland at a similar level to the LOI just because they can play professionally.

Between the 4 countries you have a population of 15 million people. So you would have a bigger number of people interested in watching the league. This could lead to TV deals with the BBC, Sky, ITV and RTE. All would be interested if the league had a higher profile. Our population and support base is too small to support a professional league and we need domestic professional teams to improve. At the moment we are at the mercy of the English system as to how our young players develop and this clearly hasn't worked. The young people would get behind teams if it was marketed well from scratch and over a few years people would get interested like the rugby. Many of Munster, Leinster and Connaught Rugby fans wouldn't have gotten interested in rugby only for the higher profile.

**gastric** · 05/03/2013, 7:47 AM

Brady enters this debate and makes some very pertinent points about schoolboy soccer in Ireland.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-29108586.html

**peadar1987** · 05/03/2013, 8:50 AM

Originally Posted by squareball

A big problem I'd see is that even if the players from Belvedere, Cherry Orchard or who ever wants to stay at home they still have to move clubs. So at 15 or 16 your friends are moving to United, Liverpool or whoever your going to St. Pats or Shamrock Rovers or whoever. You are seen as a failure. If there was a progression from playing youth football to playing LOI with the one club players would feel that they will get their chance if they are good enough. There would be less pressure on players to leave Ireland as they would still be playing at a reasonably high level and would have a bit of loyalty to the club. This would also encourage players to play LOI for last year or two as they would be going back to a club they already played for. Players would know that they will get a contract if they continue improving and would probably avail of a better standard of coaching if the likes of Shamrock Rovers and other LOI teams were given support by the FAI for a couple of years to develop their own players and coaches. You could also have a national academy for the cream of the crop feeding into these clubs too.

I think a Celtic League system would work if done properly. It would probably be a 16 team league starting off with four clubs going from each country. You would need a second and maybe even a third division to feed into the league with the next four from each country going into these. The problem in Ireland would be to spread the clubs going in geographically so that there wouldn't be a concentration of clubs from Dublin which would impact on fan bases. You could have Sligo, Derry, Limerick and Shamrock Rovers in the top division. These clubs would have the most chance of competing as they would get decent crowds and all have decent infrastructure with Limerick using Thomond Park. All the clubs would need to have teams from under 12 up and this would help us produce a better standard of player. Young Irish kids would have something to aim for without moving abroad. Celtic and Rangers would still have a big head-start but we could eventually catch up. In theory a youth league between the teams in a Celtic League would improve the standard of all four national teams. How many Irish lads are playing in Scotland at a similar level to the LOI just because they can play professionally.

Between the 4 countries you have a population of 15 million people. So you would have a bigger number of people interested in watching the league. This could lead to TV deals with the BBC, Sky, ITV and RTE. All would be interested if the league had a higher profile. Our population and support base is too small to support a professional league and we need domestic professional teams to improve. At the moment we are at the mercy of the English system as to how our young players develop and this clearly hasn't worked. The young people would get behind teams if it was marketed well from scratch and over a few years people would get interested like the rugby. Many of Munster, Leinster and Connaught Rugby fans wouldn't have gotten interested in rugby only for the higher profile.

I don't think our population is too small to support a professional league, if only they'd actually come out and watch the one we have. Norway manage fine, so do Scotland, Denmark, Finland, Croatia, Uruguay, and Slovenia, for example.

I do think a Celtic league would work in principle, but I don't think the Scottish clubs would ever go along with it, it would take a very long time for them to ever see the benefits over what they have now, and I don't think 8 out of the 12 SPL clubs are going to vote themselves into a lower division.

I'm still firmly convinced that if the LOI was marketed well from scratch we could average almost 5,000 a match in the Premier division after 10 or 15 years. And I think with a vibrant domestic league with a bit of money in it from increased exposure, the clubs would have the resources to keep young players at home and develop them.

**tetsujin1979** · 05/03/2013, 9:58 AM

Originally Posted by peadar1987

I don't think our population is too small to support a professional league, if only they'd actually come out and watch the one we have. Norway manage fine, so do Scotland, Denmark, Finland, Croatia, Uruguay, and Slovenia, for example.

I do think a Celtic league would work in principle, but I don't think the Scottish clubs would ever go along with it, it would take a very long time for them to ever see the benefits over what they have now, and I don't think 8 out of the 12 SPL clubs are going to vote themselves into a lower division.

I'm still firmly convinced that if the LOI was marketed well from scratch we could average almost 5,000 a match in the Premier division after 10 or 15 years. And I think with a vibrant domestic league with a bit of money in it from increased exposure, the clubs would have the resources to keep young players at home and develop them.

how many of those countries have draws from other sports comparative to Ireland?
e.g. in Limerick very few people will go to every Munster, Limerick GAA and Limerick FC games simply because of the cost involved. Munster are the big draw because of their success and the quality of opposition they attract, Limerick GAA attract a large support both from the city and the county, leaving Limerick FC with its relatively limited number of supporters

For the record, I regularly attend Munster games on the weekend, Limerick FC games when I can, and make it to as many Limerick GAA games as I can, but my preference is in that order.

**peadar1987** · 05/03/2013, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

how many of those countries have draws from other sports comparative to Ireland?
e.g. in Limerick very few people will go to every Munster, Limerick GAA and Limerick FC games simply because of the cost involved. Munster are the big draw because of their success and the quality of opposition they attract, Limerick GAA attract a large support both from the city and the county, leaving Limerick FC with its relatively limited number of supporters

For the record, I regularly attend Munster games on the weekend, Limerick FC games when I can, and make it to as many Limerick GAA games as I can, but my preference is in that order.

Norway has skiing, which is huge. I know the seasons don't overlap, but neither do the football and rugby seasons. Slovenia and Croatia have basketball and ice hockey, both of which are absolutely massive. In Scotland, football is pretty much the only show in town, and I know less about Denmark and Uruguay, but as per wiki, handball is very popular in Denmark, and I know they have a semi-pro volleyball league as well.

Using GAA and rugby as an excuse for why people don't support the LOI is just that in my opinion; an excuse.

**SkStu** · 05/03/2013, 1:19 PM

My two cents but people don't really support rugby or GAA either if you think of "support" from the perspective of a 8/9 month season. In GAA it's a compressed schedule for all Ireland that may only last a couple of games and the league continues to be poorly "supported". Rugby crowds fluctuate wildly depending on the competition and opposition and you have to bear in mind that these are provincial teams which I think will attract more floating or occasional attending fans.

I think our biggest challenge is that we simply just don't have a true fan culture in Ireland.

**paul_oshea** · 05/03/2013, 2:08 PM

There was 9000 last weekend at the Ulster North West "Derby", for a league game in February. If a LOI Dublin Derby could get something close to that you would be laughing.

Things are supported in Ireland its just not necessarily supported in the way people see in football.

**tetsujin1979** · 05/03/2013, 2:18 PM

Originally Posted by peadar1987

Using GAA and rugby as an excuse for why people don't support the LOI is just that in my opinion; an excuse.

Ignoring them as a reason is equally myopic

**peadar1987** · 05/03/2013, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Ignoring them as a reason is equally myopic

Agreed, but a lot of people seem to say "Ah sure there's rugby and GAA, so why bother, it's impossible to get numbers up anyway". The situation in other countries would seem to disprove that. Ireland is not some sort of magical special case, plenty of countries of similar size can sustain several sports at a high level.

**paul_oshea** · 05/03/2013, 3:18 PM

Ah, but it is a magical special case, its our magical special place.

**SkStu** · 05/03/2013, 3:25 PM

Originally Posted by paul_oshea

There was 9000 last weekend at the Ulster North West "Derby", for a league game in February. If a LOI Dublin Derby could get something close to that you would be laughing.

Things are supported in Ireland its just not necessarily supported in the way people see in football.

Honestly, all I'm seeing in your example is event-junkyism... in other words that sort of attendance for the league is the exception as opposed to the rule. Don't get me wrong, I agree, it'd be great if LOI could get a few one off crowds of 9000! But I hope you're not trying to argue that the league is well "supported"...?

**paul_oshea** · 05/03/2013, 3:46 PM

I'm saying its not getting 9000 at every game, but I'd suggest throughout the league campaign you will see almost that many for one game a week or if not at least every 2nd week, and average them out with all the All ireland matches and back door games, and you have a fairly high average, over a per-longed period. If you even got that for one game every second week you would be doing well(in the LOI), that's the point I am making. How many games in the whole season of the LOI, would get say 4+K? Id imagine it has to be a Shamrocks rovers game(even in Cork) to pull in that crowd?

If you take it in the overall context, even if its event junkyism as you refer to, it would be a huge increase in LOI attendances to match something similar.

I think a change in mindset, not least in what people think is required to support would be most welcome and would start something off.

**geysir** · 05/03/2013, 3:50 PM

Attending a GAA national league game in winter is hardly the stuff of event-junkeyism.

I wouldn't have any faith in a Celtic league competition that Peadar suggested, not even to supplement a LOI season. A league is a local affair.

**SkStu** · 05/03/2013, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by paul_oshea

I'm saying its not getting 9000 at every game, but I'd suggest throughout the league campaign you will see almost that many for one game a week or if not at least every 2nd week, and average them out with all the All ireland matches and back door games, and you have a fairly high average, over a per-longed period. If you even got that for one game every second week you would be doing well(in the LOI), that's the point I am making. How many games in the whole season of the LOI, would get say 4+K? Id imagine it has to be a Shamrocks rovers game(even in Cork) to pull in that crowd?

If you take it in the overall context, even if its event junkyism as you refer to, it would be a huge increase in LOI attendances to match something similar.

I agree. That's why I said "Don't get me wrong, I agree, it'd be great if LOI could get a few one off crowds of 9000!"

My point is that we don't have a fan/support culture in Ireland when it comes to live sport. A crowd of 9000 for a big derby game doesn't prove otherwise. Given the catchment population its actually not that big. And the fact that this is considered a big (in terms of the league) crowd for a big derby whereas it might be 5 times that in the AI speaks to event junkyism, in my opinion.

**paul_oshea** · 05/03/2013, 4:04 PM

Ya, but like the rugby it could be seen the same way.

You see it from a footballing context of going every week to support your club or at least every second week for all the home games. In Gaelic football and hurling it is more chosen alright, but you are dealing with two sports over two different weekends generally. I think many of the NFL games would get 9000, in fact I'd imagine that at least 2 games got that, Mayo played dublin that weekend too, even though it was on TV id imagine the crowd was somewhere similar(unfortunately I cant find the actual attendance). Call it whatever you want, but if the LOI had attendances like that even sporadically it would make a big difference.

**SkStu** · 05/03/2013, 4:12 PM

I know how I see it. That's how I defined "support" in my first post. It's a pretty global concept/definition so I think it's a fair barometer to judge by. I included rugby in my original post because that's how I see it too, for the most part event junkyism as opposed to fan culture. Nothing you are posting is realistically challenging that statement.

And.............. I agree. That's why I said "Don't get me wrong, I agree, it'd be great if LOI could get a few one off crowds of 9000!". I can only agree with one of your points so many times!

**paul_oshea** · 05/03/2013, 4:21 PM

We could only realistically find out if it is based on attendances and comparisons.

Because club games can get very big attendances as well in Gaelic football and hurling especially out of the group stages within County, then provincial, then All-Ireland. All these things have to be taken into consideration in GAA, again its relative to the size of the catchment area as well or per head. There is far more to support in GAA between things like the relevant cups pre-NFL/NHL, the NFL/NHL, the club championships, the county championships and All-Ireland. It would be impossible and wholly unrealistic to think that a "supporter" would have go to all to not be considered an event junkie.

Actually the more I think about it, I don't think event junkyism is correct for GAA in Ireland, sure you get more attendances at the bigger all-ireland matches, but relative you get big attendances at club games in championship too.

**SkStu** · 05/03/2013, 4:39 PM

You're taking this into irrelevant territory. Youre getting hung up on and offended by my references to event-junkyism.

The bones of my initial post again were.... We don't have good, representative, regular and sustained attendances in any sport on the island. We do have events that achieve higher than normal attendances but these are largely the exception and/or are not sustained longer than a couple of weeks with the exception of the AI which is essentially a summer long event.

I'm not saying we don't have fans in any of these codes. We do. We just don't have a fan culture as a nation when it comes to attending sports which would see proportionate and sustained attendances across all relevant sports.

And of course, I'd love if the LoI could creatively tap into some of the event junkyism. But we don't have the expertise and resources to do it ourselves and we don't have the support from the FAI to enable it.