Macedonia V Republic of Ireland - Saturday, 4th June 2011 - Euro 2012 Qualifier

[SwanVsDalton]

Difficult to respect a manager who ignores someone for 3 years then sticks him right into the starting lineup for a competitive game. Reeks of Stan with Carsley, Miller and Reid.

What player?

[tommy_c12000]

In fairness you referenced Kilbane's experience for giving him the nod, and that's a factor for Kelly too. I think he's a steadier option and just as logical in some respects.

Besides referencing Premiership starts isn't very logical - a lot of guff footballers get regular games in the Prem.

If ye are citing experience as a key factor, when was Kelly's last competitive start for Ireland because it certainly wasn't in 2011 or in 2010 (just checked)? Couldn't be bothered going back further. But suspect it may have been his appalling game V Georgia at Croker where he left go over his head and gifted Georgia the opener.

At least Foley has one competitive start to his name V Macedonia this year. Foley has made 7 appearances for Ireland while Kelly has made 20 (vast majority being friendlies). Wouldn't think experience should play a huge factor in choosing between the pair because neither are established international full backs.

If you don't use club football parameters to judge players then you have nothing. That's the bottom line. Just the few days like Trap has in the build up to the qualifying games to decide if a player is good or not.

[Stuttgart88]

There was a remark from someoe (can't recall who) which indicated that the team is not thinking like that. This is a must win game and I think they recognise that. I'll take a point if, and only if, that's all we can get.

Murf, who are you referring to - O'Dea or Kelly? There's good reason why neither has featured in the last 2 years:

O'Shea - Dunne - St. Ledger....

[tommy_c12000]

How do I multi quote from different subscribers? Feels like I'm taking on the whole establishment of the FAI here. Good to see that they are firmly behind their man . . . for the time being

[Stuttgart88]

If ye are citing experience as a key factor, when was Kelly's last competitive start for Ireland because it certainly wasn't in 2011 or in 2010 (just checked)? Couldn't be bothered going back further. But suspect it may have been his appalling game V Georgia at Croker where he left go over his head and gifted Georgia the opener.

At least Foley has one competitive start to his name V Macedonia this year. Foley has made 7 appearances for Ireland while Kelly has made 20 (vast majority being friendlies). Wouldn't think experience should play a huge factor in choosing between the pair because neither are established international full backs.

If you don't use club football parameters to judge players then you have nothing. That's the bottom line. Just the few days like Trap has in the build up to the qualifying games to decide if a player is good or not.

tommy, ask the nurse for a pill.

The point is that Foley has been given his chances and hasn't taken them, and that was when we had Dunne in the team, our best defender. Foley made a howler in that competitive game you're talking about. It's a close call but Kelly has it in him to do the job. It's a while back I know, but I thought he was really good against Brazil in London. I'd be happy enough with either but think Kelly is marginally the better call. Whatever about experience, I think Kelly has more of a leader in him and we're short of that.

[Stuttgart88]

How do I multi quote from different subscribers? Feels like I'm taking on the whole establishment of the FAI here. Good to see that they are firmly behind their man . . . for the time being

Click the multi quote button alongside every post you want to cite, then press quote on the last post and then edit accordingly. I finally figured it ouit after about 8,000 posts.

Yours,

J. Delaney.

[Bottle of Tonic]

Sorry Tommy C im gonna have to weigh in behind the other lads here and endorse the Kelly selection ahead of Foley. The basis of your preferred selection seems to be 'number of games started in league last year'. International football is a totally different animal from club football. Even more restrictive being a nation with a limited quality pick like us. It simply does not translate 'logically' from 'best statistically performing 11 in league' to 'first 11 for national side'. Statistically doesn't even come in to it actually. International game is a different animal altogether and for a jittery away tie in a former yugoslavic state, Kelly, the wiser more experienced head is the sensible pick.

Your Long/Cox rant is way out of proportion too. Most here reckon Long is the better player, at least potentially, but there is not enough in it between them, coupled with the fact that Long is a fantastic game changing option off the bench(ditto Fahey behind Andrews), to make such a whinge over the whole thing.

Tis a solid team. We play shoite football, but reasonably effective, we should be fine.

Please!

[geysir]

Tommy needs about 8 sleeping pills just to feel slightly tranquil.

[SwanVsDalton]

If ye are citing experience as a key factor, when was Kelly's last competitive start for Ireland because it certainly wasn't in 2011 or in 2010 (just checked)? Couldn't be bothered going back further. But suspect it may have been his appalling game V Georgia at Croker where he left go over his head and gifted Georgia the opener.

At least Foley has one competitive start to his name V Macedonia this year. Foley has made 7 appearances for Ireland while Kelly has made 20 (vast majority being friendlies). Wouldn't think experience should play a huge factor in choosing between the pair because neither are established international full backs.

If you don't use club football parameters to judge players then you have nothing. That's the bottom line. Just the few days like Trap has in the build up to the qualifying games to decide if a player is good or not.

I couldn't be bothered going looking for it but there was a right back debate a while ago (before the last Macedonia game I believe) but I listed their relative games - trust me when I say Kelly has played in far more competitive Irish internationals than that (and certainly far more than Foley, even when both have been in squads).

Anyway we're hardly FAI just because we can see the logic in selecting him! There's several reasons why selecting Kelly COULD be seen as justified. Foley didn't play well in the last game, with a return game there are very specific reasons (height, experience) why Kelly could be selected in front of him. You talk about his caps as if his experience isn't worthwhile - guys been playing Prem football on and off for about eight seasons. He's a fine player and I'm sure he won't let us down.

Foley played a lot this year but even towards the end of the season there was a period he wasn't first choice right back for Wolves. He reclaimed it, in fairness, but it just goes to show these things are variable and the calls that are made a lot tighter than you suggest. Foley is by no means a slam dunk selection, albeit I think him or Coleman will be our number one right back in the future. But for now Kelly could very well be the right man for this game, especially after the run-around Foley got last time.

[geysir]

I was all braced up preparing for 90 minutes with McShane at RB, now a steamroller couldn't rattle me.

[Stuttgart88]

I could do withh tommy's sleeping pills. And his nurse.

[tommy_c12000]

I could do withh tommy's sleeping pills. And his nurse.

If u had seen my nurse u'd retract that last statement. . . .

[French Toasht]

Your Long/Cox rant is way out of proportion too. Most here reckon Long is the better player, at least potentially, but there is not enough in it between them, coupled with the fact that Long is a fantastic game changing option off the bench(ditto Fahey behind Andrews), to make such a whinge over the whole thing.

I think 22 goals more this season is a significant enough difference to seperate the two. Don't you?

This whole Cox situation reminds me of how Irish fans were lauding McShane as the next Paul McGrath after he made an impressive debut. Cox has no track record whereby Long does. Why take a chance like this in such a crucial qualifier?

Even tactically this makes no sense. Cox is the very same type player as Robbie Keane, so why wouldn't we play Long, a player who plays off the shoulder of the last defender and plays further forward. Particularly when our central midfield pairing offer us nothing creatively, it astounds me why we would not play Long.

As for your game changing notion, I disagree. You start with your strongest 11 available and go for the jugular. Not hold back and throw on your best players at a later stage in the game.

[SwanVsDalton]

I think 22 goals more this season is a significant enough difference to seperate the two. Don't you?

This whole Cox situation reminds me of how Irish fans were lauding McShane as the next Paul McGrath after he made an impressive debut. Cox has no track record whereby Long does. Why take a chance like this in such a crucial qualifier?

Even tactically this makes no sense. Cox is the very same type player as Robbie Keane, so why wouldn't we play Long, a player who plays off the shoulder of the last defender and plays further forward. Particularly when our central midfield pairing offer us nothing creatively, it astounds me why we would not play Long.

As for your game changing notion, I disagree. You start with your strongest 11 available and go for the jugular. Not hold back and throw on your best players at a later stage in the game.

I actually agree with the last point, but Cox will play as an outlet to feet linking midfield and attack I believe. However it's all moot until we see what happens. I trust the manager has his reasons.

Also it's worth reiterating - we won't win or lose this game because Cox got chosen over Long.

[tommy_c12000]

Also it's worth reiterating - we won't win or lose this game because Cox got chosen over Long.

I agree, we'll put it down to bad luck instead

[SwanVsDalton]

I agree, we'll put it down to bad luck instead

Jees you are testy! Irish fans arn't just some amorphous blob who blindly follow (well usually!). There's a lot of different views here. I haven't thought we've been particularly lucky or unlucky since Paris, and I wouldn't take anyone seriously who just casually put down every bad result to bad luck.

Likewise though, it's likely there'll be more than a few who'll put a positive result tomorrow down to fortune rather than credit team or manager...

I can't help but feeling we're blowing our angst load a bit early here - shouldn't we wait until after the game to do this?

[topia]

I actually agree with the last point, but Cox will play as an outlet to feet linking midfield and attack I believe. However it's all moot until we see what happens. I trust the manager has his reasons.

Also it's worth reiterating - we won't win or lose this game because Cox got chosen over Long.

Surely thats exactly what Keane will be doing? I assume that means we will not hoof the ball once tomorrow?

[SwanVsDalton]

Surely thats exactly what Keane will be doing? I assume that means we will not hoof the ball once tomorrow?

Keane used to drift deep, but he does it far less under Trap. He tends to pressure the first defender, chase backpasses and play off the last man, albeit while receiving the ball to feet and trying to play one-two's. I think Cox will play a bit deeper throughout. Speculation, but that's my guess.

EDIT - Oh yeah and of course we'll hoof the ball, we're Ireland. I'm not saying we'll radically change our game, but the selection of Cox undoubtedly looks like a slight change of approach since we can't reach for the direct ball into channels/over the top for a Doyle/Long. Ain't Cox's game from what I've seen.

[Bottle of Tonic]

Ya I worded it awkwardly alright, but in the context of this particular game, bearing in mind the 2 warm up games vs NI and Scotch and the partnership with Keane, Longs possible fatigue, mental or otherwise, Longs last game vs Macedonia, the apparent lack of partnership/intuition between Keane and Long....... I'd say there's not a HUGE amount between them for this particular game and I can see why Trap has selected Cox, even though(!) I would have preferred to see Long myself!

As regards the game changing subs. Its a complex one, but the way we play under Trap(generally fairly ****e) and the way we control midfield(we dont) I think its useful to have the likes of Long and Fahey on the bench to call on if we need to change it up a bit 20mins to go. Bearing in mind that we are quite good at the moment at playing shoite but still snaking results! Having decent men on the bench gives us opportunity to change it if needs be. Having Andrews, Cox, Lawrence et al coming off the bench to salvage a draw or sneak a win doesn't inspire much confidence.

[Noelys Guitar]

We'll all know by this time tomorrow( 10.32 Irish) whether Trap's choice of Cox over Long has payed off. My own feeling on this is that Long had a slight mediocre spell for Reading before the Cardiff play-off game. Played well against Cardiff but looked tired against Swansea. He could well be carrying a slight knock or it could be genuine tiredness. Cox on the other hand had a much shorter season. Played a big part in West Brom's revival and played at a higher level than Long. Plus two good games against NI and Scotland. Hopefully he pays off Trap's trust in him tomorrow night and bags a couple of goals or helps Robbie bag a couple or whoever. The serious stuff starts in 21 hours and 50 mins! COME ON IRELAND!