LOI support for Ireland

[Red Army]

Cant stand that sort of stuff myself. It's like going to the theater or something you're not really part of the game like supporters should be. Each to their own I guess

[harleyleeds]

Maybe you need to look at this from a different angle. Think about the thousands of Polish nationals that moved here during the building boom, many of them had children during this period, thousands of them then returned to Poland after the bust. The children that they had for the most part will have had at most a few years exposure to the country of their birth, and very little exposure to the culture as they are surrounded by Polish family who always intended to return to their homeland. By your rigid definition of nationlity those children, many of whom won't even remember ever living in Ireland, would only be eligible to play for Ireland. Do you see a problem yet?

I see your point for sure, my own son was born there and left after only two months and Ireland means very little to him (he is a New Yorker). There are always exceptions to any rule and I have no doubt that at least one of those Polish (Irish born) kids will be good enough to play for Ireland but not for Poland and will then decide better to play on world stage for Ireland than not at all. He would then play with all his heart to win . Of course there would be unfortunate cases (problems if u like). There are players born and bred in Ireland that would be in next line play for their country if foreigners were not allowed. I think its unfair on them. I also beleive that the number of situations such as the Poles you described would be miniscule in comparason to the number with an Irish grandparent for eligability.

[DannyInvincible]

The thing is that many of those hypothetical Poles you speak of potentially lining out for Ireland might not actually qualify for Irish nationality, thereby making them ineligible. As a consequence, under your criteria, they'd be prevented from playing international football altogether.

[harleyleeds]

The thing is that many of those hypothetical Poles you speak of potentially lining out for Ireland might not actually qualify for Irish nationality, thereby making them ineligible. As a consequence, under your criteria, they'd be prevented from playing international football altogether.

I only mentioned one possible Polish player(not many) .They were introduced earlier as a possible example(not by me). Why on earth would someone born in the country not be a citizen? (of course they are) . Why would they be prevented from playing international football altogether? Perhaps rules could say you had to have lived for a certain amount of years in the country then, or something. Under present rules someone who was born here in US who's parents were born here in the US and who had one of there parents (grandparent)born in Ireland is fine to play, never mind the fact that they never set foot in the country and it matters not to them other than a place on world stage. I dont feel that person is in any way Irish . El P was born in England but grew up in Ireland so I see his view (I would consider him more Irish than my son ) and so as I said perhaps a time living in country to be eligible would be fairer but the grandfather rule (there not Irish).

[DannyInvincible]

Has it worked yet?

There's a thread on this over on OWC at the minute posing the question of whether or not Irish League players are good enough to play internationally for NI and every single response so far has been a pretty resounding "no". The thread starter does mention the "shop window" concept, but points out that this has also been a failure, by and large, for the players it's intended to benefit.

Playing Irish League players is meant to put them in the shop window but why then is Michael Gault still playing in the league 3 years after his international debut. Including Colin Coates, Chris Casement, Robert Garrett etc who still remain in the league.

James McClean of Derry City has been mentioned as one of the few players playing locally deserving of a call-up, whilst another poster states that, out of all the locally-playing players called up in recent years, only Niall McGinn ever looked up to the standard expected when still playing with Derry.

[DannyInvincible]

Why on earth would someone born in the country not be a citizen? (of course they are) . Why would they be prevented from playing international football altogether?

There's more to citizenship than simply being born in a particular jurisdiction. Irish nationality law, for example, generally entitles only those with Irish parents to Irish citizenship. The child of Polish immigrants born in Ireland won't be automatically conferred Irish citizenship by virtue of his or her birth here; the parents will have to have already been naturalised citizens or satisfy some other residency criteria for the child to be considered an Irish citizen. Obviously not all Poles who would have moved to Ireland temporarily and had children whilst here will satisfy those criteria.

If a player doesn't possess permanent Irish nationality then he can't play for Ireland. If that same player wasn't born in the country of his legal nationality, he'd be denied the opportunity to play for that country under your peculiarly stringent criteria.

[harleyleeds]

There's more to citizenship than simply being born in a particular jurisdiction. Irish nationality law, for example, generally entitles only those with Irish parents to Irish citizenship. The child of Polish immigrants born in Ireland won't be automatically conferred Irish citizenship by virtue of his or her birth here; the parents will have to have already been naturalised citizens or satisfy some other residency criteria for the child to be considered an Irish citizen. Obviously not all Poles who would have moved to Ireland temporarily and had children whilst here will satisfy those criteria.

If a player doesn't possess permanent Irish nationality then he can't play for Ireland. If that same player wasn't born in the country of his legal nationality, he'd be denied the opportunity to play for that country under your peculiarly stringent criteria.

You know your just trying to invent situations. Yes they are entitled to citizinship after 18 years old. Theres nothing peculiar about it. Why harp on about the one situation i.e the Pole? Read the rest of the post it said perhaps it would be fairer for a time in country. You accept that someone who has never even seen your country is to be cheered on before a lad born and bred there and I disagree .THATS NOT PECULIAR.
Time to end this silly debate you continue to accept foreigners and I will not . I really dont care about the Irish national team anyways club football is much more important.

[DannyInvincible]

You know your just trying to invent situations. Yes they are entitled to citizinship after 18 years old. Theres nothing peculiar about it. Why harp on about the one situation i.e the Pole? Read the rest of the post it said perhaps it would be fairer for a time in country. You accept that someone who has never even seen your country is to be cheered on before a lad born and bred there and I disagree .THATS NOT PECULIAR.
Time to end this silly debate you continue to accept foreigners and I will not . I really dont care about the Irish national team anyways club football is much more important.

Well, it was actually you who introduced the hypothetical Pole(s). I was just taking your idea to its logical conclusion and pointing out what repercussions your stance might have on him/them; indeed invented, but entirely plausible all the same. It doesn't matter if there is one or dozens; the principle still remains the same regardless. These are the types of hypothetical scenarios you have to try to foresee and envisage before you'd introduce such crude and inflexible regulations as the approach you've been espousing. But it's good to see that you've begun to see the stringency of your ways and have at least suggested something a little bit more sensible with the "fulfilling 'X' years as resident" suggestion.

Who is entitled to citizenship after 18-years-old? Irish nationality law is outlined here pretty succinctly: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en...h_citizenship/

Excuse me for interpreting your expression of an opinion on a public forum as an invitation to debate; I must have been mistaken... And no need for the sour grapes.

[harleyleeds]

Well, it was actually you who introduced the hypothetical Pole(s). I was just taking your idea to its logical conclusion and pointing out what repercussions your stance might have on him/them; indeed invented, but entirely plausible all the same. It doesn't matter if there is one or dozens; the principle still remains the same regardless. These are the types of hypothetical scenarios you have to try to foresee and envisage before you'd introduce such crude and inflexible regulations as the approach you've been espousing. But it's good to see that you've begun to see the stringency of your ways and have at least suggested something a little bit more sensible with the "fulfilling 'X' years as resident" suggestion.

Who is entitled to citizenship after 18-years-old? Irish nationality law is outlined here pretty succinctly: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en...h_citizenship/

Excuse me for interpreting your expression of an opinion on a public forum as an invitation to debate; I must have been mistaken... And no need for the sour grapes.

Dear oh dear . Ok ..... A child born in the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 is entitled to Irish citizenship if they have a British parent or a parent who is entitled to live in Northern Ireland or the Irish State without restriction on their residency. That would be EU I would think.

Regardless this was by passinginterest .....

Maybe you need to look at this from a different angle. Think about the thousands of Polish nationals that moved here during the building boom, many of them had children during this period, thousands of them then returned to Poland after the bust. The children that they had for the most part will have had at most a few years exposure to the country of their birth, and very little exposure to the culture as they are surrounded by Polish family who always intended to return to their homeland. By your rigid definition of nationlity those children, many of whom won't even remember ever living in Ireland, would only be eligible to play for Ireland. Do you see a problem yet?



But it's good to see that you've begun to see the stringency of your ways and have at least suggested something a little bit more sensible with the "fulfilling 'X' years as resident" suggestion

Couldnt just say "fair point" eh.



I meant this debate was getting silly cos debate means two viewpoints and you only accept one , yours.

[DannyInvincible]

It seems I was a bit presumptious. You're correct to point that out; something I'd missed. The children of EU nationals born here would be entitled to Irish citizenship, it appears. I'm not sure whether its status would be automatically conferred or whether they'd have to apply for it, mind. In saying that, I could bring non-EU nationals into the equation and, if I'm not mistaken, the original point would stand, but I'm content to leave it at that. I'm in less argumentative mood.

[mypost]

You accept that someone who has never even seen your country is to be cheered on before a lad born and bred there and I disagree .THATS NOT PECULIAR.
Time to end this silly debate you continue to accept foreigners and I will not . I really dont care about the Irish national team anyways club football is much more important.

Why is club football "more important"?

In club football, they use the same systems, in fact their use is even worse than the international game. If a foreigner signs for a club, then in many cases, he's taking the place of a local in the club's academy/youth team, who then is deprived the chance to play for his local club. Do you object to that as well, or does it not matter because club football is considered "more important"?

Parochialism is for other sports, but football is a global one, where any player can play for Ireland, wherever he's born or based in the world if a) he is better than what we have and b) meets the qualifying criteria at the time. That means he is as Irish as those of us brought up here. As such, I have no problem with him lining out and representing our country.

[bullit]

MYPOST.

Stick up a vote and lets sort this out !!

[legendz]

I'm not sure who made the point recently but the point was made that the FAI might be paying the price a bit for the fact people aren't too accustomed to going to live games. It's a fair point in some respects.

[BonnieShels]

I'm not sure who made the point recently but the point was made that the FAI might be paying the price a bit for the fact people aren't too accustomed to going to live games. It's a fair point in some respects.

As is the LOI. There are so many people out there who've never been to a live game probably in any sport.

[legendz]

As is the LOI. There are so many people out there who've never been to a live game probably in any sport.

I think you'd find the majority of GAA and rugby supporters have been to live games, be it county, province or country. I don't think the same can be said of association football.

[peadar1987]

I've said this many times, but the Carling Nations Cup is a fledgling tournament, and needs big attendances in the first few runnings to get it off the ground. That means dirt cheap tickets, like for the FAI Cup final, a few full houses, and a great atmosphere. The FAI's money-grabbing myopia could well have doomed the future of this tournament before it's even had a chance to get established.

On the subject of elegibility, it's perfectly possible to feel affinity for more than one country. I am half Irish, half English, Ireland would always be my first choice, but if I was ever selected to play for England, I would do so with pride and committment. My girlfriend is Dutch, but grew up in Scotland. You'd be hard pushed to find a more committed Scotland rugby supporter, even though she's Netherlands through and through when it comes to hockey or football. National identity is an immensely complicated issue, and you can't condense it down to something as facile as "Only Irish born people can ever be Irish".

[marinobohs]

As is the LOI. There are so many people out there who've never been to a live game probably in any sport.

Mentioned it earlier, but I do believe we have "developed" a generation of fans that automatically assosiate watching football with TV / SKY and that chickens are coming home to roost in the new Aviva - right at the worst possible time for the FAI. Given the more difficult economic climate less fans are actually attending games. My own view is that this commenced during the Charlton era when there was difficulty getting tickets - many fans go tinto the habit of watching the games in the local (I remember being asked "where are you watching the game ?" and been met with a startled expression when I said Lansdowne Rd ) from my own experience I know going to both club and Ireland games since a young age meant going to a game is my "default" mode but can easily see how the opposite would set in (with pub as primary/main vantage point)

The deterioration of crowds suffered by the LOI in recent decades maybe now decending on the FAI. Funnily enough. the same excuses - crap standard, poorcompetition, too expensive etc - that we have heard for years about LOI are now trotted out to "explain" non attendance at Ireland games.

[BonnieShels]

I've said this many times, but the Carling Nations Cup is a fledgling tournament, and needs big attendances in the first few runnings to get it off the ground. That means dirt cheap tickets, like for the FAI Cup final, a few full houses, and a great atmosphere. The FAI's money-grabbing myopia could well have doomed the future of this tournament before it's even had a chance to get established.

On the subject of elegibility, it's perfectly possible to feel affinity for more than one country. I am half Irish, half English, Ireland would always be my first choice, but if I was ever selected to play for England, I would do so with pride and committment. My girlfriend is Dutch, but grew up in Scotland. You'd be hard pushed to find a more committed Scotland rugby supporter, even though she's Netherlands through and through when it comes to hockey or football. National identity is an immensely complicated issue, and you can't condense it down to something as facile as "Only Irish born people can ever be Irish".

Your poor kids are gonna have awful trouble during the six nations.

Why doesn't anybody ever think of the sex cauldron!

[BonnieShels]

Mentioned it earlier, but I do believe we have "developed" a generation of fans that automatically assosiate watching football with TV / SKY and that chickens are coming home to roost in the new Aviva - right at the worst possible time for the FAI. Given the more difficult economic climate less fans are actually attending games. My own view is that this commenced during the Charlton era when there was difficulty getting tickets - many fans go tinto the habit of watching the games in the local (I remember being asked "where are you watching the game ?" and been met with a startled expression when I said Lansdowne Rd ) from my own experience I know going to both club and Ireland games since a young age meant going to a game is my "default" mode but can easily see how the opposite would set in (with pub as primary/main vantage point)

The deterioration of crowds suffered by the LOI in recent decades maybe now decending on the FAI. Funnily enough. the same excuses - crap standard, poorcompetition, too expensive etc - that we have heard for years about LOI are now trotted out to "explain" non attendance at Ireland games.

Spot on. As I said over on the Scotland match thread I've never seen people make there way to a stadium only to walk away despite it not being sold out. I don't think we square all the blame with the FAI for one as the other 3 associations were complicit in it. However the FAI should have the knowledge and idea of what the match going public are expecting. That they had so many empty seats at all these games shows that they all think we are living in a pre recession wonderland.

I had a few conversations about how the national team is perceived now and really no one knows or cares. Even today at the back of the metro the headline was about united and barca despite the picture being of Robbie and co.

I feel like a con if I can't make it to a Shels, Dublin or Ireland game. That's my default setting. I just don't think I can understand it being any other way.

Maybe this attitude if Irish "fans"will change come a tournament qualification. We can only want and see.

[harleyleeds]

I've said this many times, but the Carling Nations Cup is a fledgling tournament, and needs big attendances in the first few runnings to get it off the ground. That means dirt cheap tickets, like for the FAI Cup final, a few full houses, and a great atmosphere. The FAI's money-grabbing myopia could well have doomed the future of this tournament before it's even had a chance to get established.

On the subject of elegibility, it's perfectly possible to feel affinity for more than one country. I am half Irish, half English, Ireland would always be my first choice, but if I was ever selected to play for England, I would do so with pride and committment. My girlfriend is Dutch, but grew up in Scotland. You'd be hard pushed to find a more committed Scotland rugby supporter, even though she's Netherlands through and through when it comes to hockey or football. National identity is an immensely complicated issue, and you can't condense it down to something as facile as "Only Irish born people can ever be Irish".

too right my kid is half Irish,half English and half American.