Page 1 of 10 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 188

Thread: Scotland at the crossroads

  1. #1
    First Team
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Tralee
    Posts
    1,372
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    60
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    122
    Thanked in
    99 Posts

    Scotland at the crossroads

    The SNP have ruled Scotland for the last four years as a minority government, but have been unable to hold a referendum on independence due to the blocking votes of the three London-based parties. Now, however, opinion polls indicate that the Nationalists will increase their seat total on Thursday, but probably not by enough to secure a majority. Polls regularly indicate that the Scots would reject independence, which in practice would only affect Westminster representation as no parties want to drop the monarchy or sterling at the moment, but like Quebec, a vote will probably be needed to settle the issue.

  2. #2
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,025
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,392
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,634
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by culloty82 View Post
    The SNP have ruled Scotland for the last four years as a minority government, but have been unable to hold a referendum on independence due to the blocking votes of the three London-based parties. Now, however, opinion polls indicate that the Nationalists will increase their seat total on Thursday, but probably not by enough to secure a majority. Polls regularly indicate that the Scots would reject independence, which in practice would only affect Westminster representation as no parties want to drop the monarchy or sterling at the moment, but like Quebec, a vote will probably be needed to settle the issue.
    And maybe the Tories, Lib Dems and Labour might let them have it? Even Trimble's jokey comment about letting the north have one might end up going the same road in Ecosse.

  3. #3
    Godless Commie Scum
    Joined
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Co Wickla
    Posts
    11,389
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    137
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    650
    Thanked in
    433 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by culloty82 View Post
    Polls regularly indicate that the Scots would reject independence, which in practice would only affect Westminster representation as no parties want to drop the monarchy or sterling at the moment, but like Quebec, a vote will probably be needed to settle the issue.
    If the "UK" parties were that confident why do they keep blocking it? Not being smart, I simply haven't followed it closely enough, but if the polls show it wouldn't be carried, you'd think they'd have the vote and then get on with it. It seems like silly tactics as the SNP probably getting support on the basis on getting a referendum even from people who'd vote against it!
    If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.

  4. #4
    Seasoned Pro peadar1987's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    2,574
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    768
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    803
    Thanked in
    474 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Macy View Post
    If the "UK" parties were that confident why do they keep blocking it? Not being smart, I simply haven't followed it closely enough, but if the polls show it wouldn't be carried, you'd think they'd have the vote and then get on with it. It seems like silly tactics as the SNP probably getting support on the basis on getting a referendum even from people who'd vote against it!
    I think a lot of it's a money issue. It's not cheap to hold referenda.

    But I think it could well be closer than opinion polls suggest. When I lived over there, it seemed like the pro-independence people cared far more about the issue than the pro-union ones. There might well be a greater turnout from the nationalist side.

    I personally think it wouldn't be a bad thing. Scotland is a very different place to the rest of the UK, and its issues can#t be addressed the same way as those of London, Manchester, or Belfast.

  5. #5
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Scotland also has its own legal system as distinct from that in England and Wales.

    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    And maybe the Tories, Lib Dems and Labour might let them have it? Even Trimble's jokey comment about letting the north have one might end up going the same road in Ecosse.
    Interestingly, as part of the GFA terms, if a referendum on unity was to occur in NI, another referendum would not be permitted to occur for at least another seven years.

    If they're confident that Scotland wishes to remain within the UK, surely the "UK parties" could wind some similar condition into any potential Scottish referendum on independence if they really wanted. At the very least, it would keep the issue off their agenda for another few years anyway, assuming any forthcoming referendum went in their favour.

  6. #6
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by peadar1987 View Post
    I personally think it wouldn't be a bad thing. Scotland is a very different place to the rest of the UK, and its issues can#t be addressed the same way as those of London, Manchester, or Belfast.
    Are you suggesting that Belfast might be less different than Scotland from the rest of the UK?

  7. #7
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,025
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,392
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,634
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    Interestingly, as part of the GFA terms, if a referendum on unity was to occur in NI, another referendum would not be permitted to occur for at least another seven years.
    I remember that well. Haven't read the gfa since 98. Must look over it again. Never know how the referenda could be instigated. And then was it mandatory to have them after 7 years. It was a very vague sop to unionism.

    Could work in Scotland alright.

    Also I know what Peadar is getting at. Themes a serious problem with Scottish nationality. It'not contiguous with Scottish identity and its very confused. In the north of Ireland everyone knows where they stand in the grand scheme of things whether they agree or not.

  8. #8
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    I remember that well. Haven't read the gfa since 98. Must look over it again. Never know how the referenda could be instigated. And then was it mandatory to have them after 7 years. It was a very vague sop to unionism.
    The GFA states that the NI Secretary of State can call a referendum on unity "if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland". It wouldn't be mandatory to have another after seven years; this would just be the minimum amount of time that would have to pass until another could be called. Relevant portion here:

    SCHEDULE 1
    POLLS FOR THE PURPOSE OF SECTION 1
    1. The Secretary of State may by order direct the holding of a poll for the purposes of section 1 on a date specified in the order.

    2. Subject to paragraph 3, the Secretary of State shall exercise the power under paragraph 1 if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland.

    3. The Secretary of State shall not make an order under paragraph 1 earlier than seven years after the holding of a previous poll under this Schedule.

  9. Thanks From:


  10. #9
    First Team
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Tralee
    Posts
    1,372
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    60
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    122
    Thanked in
    99 Posts
    With nearly half the seats declared - 58/129, both Labour and the Lib Dems are getting absolute hammerings:

    SNP 45
    Lab 20
    Con 4
    LD 2
    Green 1

    Scotland also has a list system, which will probably give a boost to the smaller parties, but the momentum can be clearly seen. Clegg will likely get another trouncing on the AV (single-seat PR) referendum, as it was seen as a vote on the Lib Dems, and Labour were split down the middle.

    The BBC's final prediction is:

    SNP 68 (overall majority)
    Lab 38
    Con 12
    LD 6
    Green 3
    Oth 2
    Last edited by culloty82; 06/05/2011 at 7:23 AM.

  11. #10
    First Team The Fly's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,318
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    354
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,050
    Thanked in
    564 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by culloty82 View Post
    The BBC's final prediction is:

    SNP 68 (overall majority)
    Lab 38
    Con 12
    LD 6
    Green 3
    Oth 2
    ...which would represent Labour's worst result since at least 1931, the worst Tory result ever and the worst Lib Dem performance since 1979.

    All in all, there's a good chance of a referendum on independence this term.
    Last edited by The Fly; 06/05/2011 at 8:31 AM.

  12. #11
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,025
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,392
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,634
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    ...which would represent Labour's worst result since at least 1931, the worst Tory result ever and the worst Lib Dem performance since 1979.

    All in all, there's a good chance of a referendum on independence this term.
    I really hope there is. I have no real desire or will to see an independent Scotland I just want to see what way these things go.

    The what ifs that will arise are tantalizing.

  13. #12
    First Team
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Tralee
    Posts
    1,372
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    60
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    122
    Thanked in
    99 Posts
    One of the most tantalising "what ifs" that arises would be Scotland's EU membership - you'd presume an independent nation would automatically continue as a member, unless it voted separately to leave, but because no region has broken away since the Treaty of Rome was said, there's no legal consensus on the issue. Should have emphasised in the OP that I wasn't anti-independence, just that even what the SNP wants seems very weak even compared with our Treaty.

  14. #13
    First Team The Fly's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,318
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    354
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,050
    Thanked in
    564 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by BonnieShels View Post
    The what ifs that will arise are tantalizing.
    The 'what if' which I find most intriguing is the effect such a prospect would have for Northern Ireland and, in particular, the Unionist psyche.
    Last edited by The Fly; 06/05/2011 at 3:38 PM.

  15. #14
    Seasoned Pro peadar1987's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    2,574
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    768
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    803
    Thanked in
    474 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    The 'what if' which I find most intriguing is the effect such a prospect would have for Northern Ireland and, in particular, the Unionist psyche.
    It'd certainly be interesting from a Northern Irish perspective. Hopefully the nutter fringe on the nationalist side would see that it's possble to break away from the UK without shooting anyone in the knee, at the very least!

  16. #15
    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Derry
    Posts
    11,524
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    3,404
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    3,738
    Thanked in
    2,284 Posts
    Alex Salmond has promised a referendum on independence to take place by 2015.

  17. #16
    First Team Gather round's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2006
    Location
    West Midlands, England
    Posts
    2,045
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    106
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    221
    Thanked in
    170 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by peadar1987 View Post
    I think a lot of it's a money issue. It's not cheap to hold referenda
    Actually, it is. Britain hardly ever has referenda. so they don't cost much. Although I suppose you could argue that that the cost is the main deterrent to having them.

    I personally think it wouldn't be a bad thing. Scotland is a very different place to the rest of the UK
    Scotland is very similar to NI, Wales and the rest of England beyond the M25, ie its economy isn't dominated by the city of London. But given that it makes up only 9% of Britain I wouldn'y get carried away.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    The 'what if' which I find most intriguing is the effect such a prospect would have for Northern Ireland and, in particular, the Unionist psyche
    I imagine the unionist psyche would be little affected/ interested in a Scottish indepedence vote which is likely to be lost heavily. Only 20% support in the 2010 Scotish general electiion, remember.
    Last edited by Gather round; 07/05/2011 at 12:01 AM.

  18. #17
    First Team Gather round's Avatar
    Joined
    Apr 2006
    Location
    West Midlands, England
    Posts
    2,045
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    106
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    221
    Thanked in
    170 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by peadar1987 View Post
    It'd certainly be interesting from a Northern Irish perspective. Hopefully the nutter fringe on the nationalist side would see that it's possble to break away from the UK without shooting anyone in the knee, at the very least!
    Maybe, although more likely nutters will continue to act nuttily. It should be fairly obvious to most reasonably intelligent NI nationalists that local unionists are simply not interested in a UI. Ergo partition wont end regardless of how enthusiastic the nutters are.

  19. #18
    Coach BonnieShels's Avatar
    Joined
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Holm Span, Blackpool
    Posts
    12,025
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,392
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    2,634
    Thanked in
    1,813 Posts
    Seems to be the subject across the Water this week and some very interesting comments and articles in the Guardian,

    Though there was one spectacular comment from an English man purporting to be in his 80's...

    • I am (obviously) not a constitutional lawyer. It does seem to me, however, that a Scottish vote to secede from the UK needs careful study. I should be interested to know the (legal) distinction between a "Scottish citizen" and a "UK citizen". If, as a young man, born, brought up and educated in England, I had moved to Scotland for employment and stayed there, would I now (at 80) be a Scottish citizen? If the distinction of citizenship is not clear then surely a referendum about a section of the UK seceding must be a decision for all UK citizens and not just for those who live in a particular part of it.
    John Pottinger
    Linthorpe, Middlesbrough
    Can be seen on this page.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jan/09/scottish-independence-thorn-and-thistle

    It surely wouldn't be that difficult for anyone to maybe just maybe to consider a time when the UK last faced a similar situation... It was in the 1920's I seem to think...
    DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?

  20. #19
    First Team
    Joined
    May 2010
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    2,472
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    1,196
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    1,690
    Thanked in
    817 Posts
    I think our campaign was a bit more nuanced... seem to recall support from Lee Enfield and Messrs Smith and Wesson playing a role... Haven't seem much of that in Scotland.

    More seriously, the Anglo-Irish Treaty might well have some lessons, but I think the Statute of Westminster, 1931 would have to be factored in as well. It's very complicated stuff...
    Hello, hello? What's going on? What's all this shouting, we'll have no trouble here!
    - E Tattsyrup.

  21. #20
    Seasoned Pro
    Joined
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Black Earth, Russia
    Posts
    3,178
    Thanks Thanks Given 
    2,739
    Thanks Thanks Received 
    584
    Thanked in
    398 Posts
    How will it play out under EU rules? In 2006, I think it was, there was discussion in Belgium about dividing the country and I am trying to remember what the EU stated on member states having breakaway regions.

    Just a little aside on Quebec, the headers there pushed very hard and I was just about to return home from an extended working holiday in 1995 (to set up for a move the next year) when the referendum took place. I could be wrong on this, as the brain's not up to much, but it was supposed by CBC talking heads that had the spoiled votes - mainly from the Yes areas - not been so, they would have broken away. And in the days just before some native nation up in the north of the province took a full page ad in the major dailies stating that under the terms of some agreement with the British and ratified in Canadian law, that if there was secession they'd leave Quebec, and that their patch of land was pretty valuable. The frenchies made some sort of threat (Bouchard said that there would be no dissent) so Chretien on the eve of the election appeared on tv and said that Canadian forces would protect the legal rights of it's citizens without qualms. I don't know if it was a major factor, but the final poll before the vote had 52-46 (yes-no). Oh, and the Quebecois told everyone that they'd join a monetary union with the USA (but I think that was earlier). It'd be funny if Scotland joined the eurozone and took the remains of the oil and gas industry with them.

Page 1 of 10 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Scotland at the crossroads
    By backstothewall in forum Other Countries
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 14/06/2021, 3:52 PM
  2. Scotland away tickets available!
    By davegaasports in forum Fans Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 30/10/2014, 9:06 AM
  3. MNS in Scotland?
    By peadar1987 in forum Premier & First Divisions
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 09/09/2009, 5:39 PM
  4. Cook at the Crossroads: Today's Champion
    By red bellied in forum Sligo Rovers
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 16/10/2007, 3:52 PM
  5. Ireland -v- Scotland
    By greenumbro in forum Women's Football
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08/05/2006, 10:20 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •