Scotland at the crossroads

[Gather round]

What was the point in including in the GFA a provision for a referendum allowing for NI to leave the union with a simple democratic majority if the whole thing is as meaningless as you suggest?

I didn't suggest it was meaningless, rather that it wasn't set in stone for centuries to come. It's a deal to allow what's effectively a British local authority to run with limited real powers and an opposition of two or three members. Not a means to wish away the border.

Who's going to back-track on that deal?

Unionists, in the unlikely event that Nationalists ever look like getting beyond 50%?

GR won't be worrying unduly about McGuinness's NI referendum - it'd take at least 30 years before there would be a majority, and that's only on the big assumption that all Catholics would vote Yes

Indeed. Maybe they could all vote twice each to make it livelier. You do realise that Catholics do occasionally vote for- and even lead- non-Nationalist parties?

[Not Brazil]

GR won't be worrying unduly about McGuinness's NI referendum - it'd take at least 30 years before there would be a majority, and that's only on the big assumption that all Catholics would vote Yes.

I'm with Marty on this one.

Bring on the Border Poll - 2016 suits fine.

[DannyInvincible]

'Scottish independence: Orange Order in Ulster Scots referendum call': http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19710873

People with an Ulster Scots background should be allowed to vote in Scotland's independence referendum, a senior Orange Order member has said.

Dr David Hume said Ulster Scots had played a key role in Scottish history.

"We are stakeholders as well. Surely a decision such as this should not ignore our input?" he said.

He was speaking at a Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland event in Glasgow to commemorate the centenary of the anti-Home Rule Ulster Covenant.

"In 1912 Scots unionists watched anxiously for Ulster, and in 2014 Ulster will watch anxiously for you as nationalists seek to win a referendum which would alter totally the constitution of our nation," he said.

"A union without Scotland would be a poorer place."

He added: "We will not forsake you as your forefathers did not forsake us.

"Many of them were not born in Ulster so they could not sign the covenant, but they held it in their hearts. We will not forget you for that and the continuing support you give to us."

Dr Hume said Ulster Scots "provided the first unifying force in Scotland in the 6th Century AD and we later extended Scottish influence to Ireland in the 17th Century".

How would that work exactly? Sounds like rhetoric to me.

[Gather round]

How would that work exactly? Sounds like rhetoric to me

Sounds like a p*ss-take on the SNP's own contortions- they want their supporters outside Scotland to have a vote, so it's only reasonable that their opponents have one too.

[BonnieShels]

And the St Andrew's Cross-roads have been reached.

Section 30 agreement signed today by Cameron and Salmond.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-19942638

Here's the agreement.

[BonnieShels]

Powers were transferred last week to allow Holyrood to hold a referendum in 2014.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-21039886

Great website dedicated to the "question" here.

[DannyInvincible]

"Scottish independence: 'Scotland Olympic team could be in Rio'": http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/24081596

Scotland will press ahead with plans to have Olympic and Paralympic teams at Rio 2016 if the country votes for independence in a year's time, says Scottish Sports Minister Shona Robison.

Ahead of the referendum on 18 September, 2014, the MSP told BBC Sport she was confident Scotland would meet the strict conditions in order to become an Olympic nation.

"We're comfortable and assured Scotland will have its own Olympic and Paralympic team. It will bring many benefits," she said.

Robison, the Scottish National Party MSP for Dundee City East, said more Scots would get the chance to participate in Brazil and future Games if independence became a reality.

She also insisted Scottish athletes would not be disadvantaged by independence, even though they would be denied access to traditional funding streams and facilities.

"We have made substantial investments," said Robison, explaining that Scottish athletes would have access to a "fantastic new velodrome and a fantastic new sports arena" in Glasgow as well as a new £25m performance centre for sport in Edinburgh.

But not everyone is convinced that Scotland - which hosts the 2014 Commonwealth Games in Glasgow - would be better off competing as a separate nation.

Badminton player Imogen Bankier, who represented Scotland at the 2010 Commonwealth Games and Britain at the 2012 Olympics, has told BBC Sport that her country does not have the facilities, funding or depth of talent to make a major impact at future Olympics.

"We're lucky with the way that it stands now for Scotland," said the 25-year-old from Glasgow.

"We can tap into the English system and be part of Team GB when it suits us and use it our advantage. Independence would mean we would lose that. That's only going to see sports suffer."

For Scotland to become an Olympic nation in its own right, it would need to fulfil several criteria:

• To be an independent state recognised by the international community
• To have a solid sporting structure, such as national federations, sports clubs, etc
• To have at least five national federations affiliated to international federations with sports included in the Olympic programme

[BonnieShels]

WEEEEIIIIIRRRRDDDDDDDDDD!!!

Just coming in to post some links.

1 year to the Referendum. I'm very excited by this.

Q&A
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13326310

Debate in Scots Parliament
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-24127510

[culloty82]

Latest poll sees the No lead down to five, could Yes improbably win?

[CraftyToePoke]

Latest poll sees the No lead down to five, could Yes improbably win?

Anymore on the polls in the lead in to this ? Cameron and his cabinet seem have a policy of largely smug condescension and belittlement which would make a yes vote all the more hilarious, were it to happen.

[BonnieShels]

I think the World Cup could actually be a good time for the Yes side with the "whole country" getting behind INGERLAND!

[Gather round]

Anymore on the polls in the lead in to this ?

You Gov published on 1 May

Yes 37%
No 51%
Unsure/ Not Voting 12%

[TheBoss]

I think the polls for this referendum are variable where ever you look, the yes vote tends to be somewhere between 40% to 48% at the moment, which does show a 5% to 10% increase compared to the start of last year. It seems the nearer the referendum is coming, the more the yes vote is gaining.

[BonnieShels]

So the consensus is that after last night's debate Salmond won by a mile. Darling let slip that Scotland could use the "pound in the event of a Yes vote". Now that was never in doubt as anyone with half a brain knows.

Anyway, the Yes side seems to have the momentum now.

Hon Bonnie Scotland!

If ya missed it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...versus-darling

[Charlie Darwin]

I don't quite see what the benefit of remaining in the union is to Scotland, other than for people who view the UK as one country, one people. If you feel separate and distinct from the rest of the union, you express your national identity as a separate country in sports, you have your own devolved parliament, etc, self-determination should be a no-brainer. I don't understand the mentality that you can be Scottish but still think you're better off being on the periphery of another country, which many in Scotland seem to at least consider. But then again as Irish people we're a bit more into self-determination than others.

[BonnieShels]

I can't fathom why any Scot would vote no.

The havoc it will wreck upon the Northern Unionist identity is quote something.

I’ll Take the High Road – Scottish Independence Debates
Monday night saw the second debate of the Scottish Independence Referendum Campaign. Unlike the first one which was held on August 5th, there was a clear winner this time around: Alex Salmond and the Yes Scotland campaign. So much so that even the venerable pro-Union Daily Telegraph’s commentary has begrudgingly said so. Will the debate change the minds of those who have so far been planning to vote “No”?

Unlikely. At this stage though, the most important voters out there are the “Don’t Knows”. They are the ones who need to be convinced of the merits of an Independent Scotland over the status quo that has existed since 1707 (or technically 1801 since Ireland was coerced into the United Kingdom or 1922 when part of Ireland left the Union).

A poll conducted after the debate by The Guardian showed that 71% of Scots watching the debate felt that the First Minister had been victorious, with former Chancellor of the Exchequer under Gordon Brown and leader of the pro-Union Better Together campaign Alastair Darling trailing in his wake on 29%.

The Yes Campaign has struggled to escape the clutches of the big “Currency Question” of the last few months. With the Tory-led Parliament stating that Scotland would not be allowed to use Sterling if Scotland were to vote “Yes”, it seemed that Yes Scotland had been hit with a sucker-punch which would be impossible to recover from.

However, in recent weeks it has seemed that the momentum has swung in favour of the Yes Campaign as they try, and succeed, to claw back Better Together’s, at one time, seemingly unassailable lead.

http://www.krank.ie/category/n_ca/wo...dence-debates/

[osarusan]

I can't fathom why any Scot would vote no.

Plenty of people are unconvinced about their economic future (just as plenty of people are convinced that it will be fine).

[DannyInvincible]

And in the name of Jesus too, of course:

[BonnieShels]

Plenty of people are unconvinced about their economic future (just as plenty of people are convinced that it will be fine).

Thanks for that. Sure that goes without saying. You would swear that being marginalised in a State of 60m would be good enough of a reason.

As I said, I can't fathom why any Scot would vote no.

[Gather round]

I don't quite see what the benefit of remaining in the union is to Scotland, other than for people who view the UK as one country, one people

OK, but why not ask some of the majority of voters likely to think that way (between 52- 57% according to this week's polls)?

If you feel separate and distinct from the rest of the union, you express your national identity as a separate country in sports

Perhaps not the best example you could choose. Your country's 'national' sports teams are in most cases shared with another country. Where many eligible players prefer to represent the other country's separate teams.

you have your own devolved parliament, etc, self-determination should be a no-brainer

They're self-determining through the referendum. Even if the result turns out to be one you don't like or understand

I don't understand the mentality that you can be Scottish but still think you're better off being on the periphery of another country, which many in Scotland seem to at least consider

Do you think your 'mentality' (ie attitude to nationality) is the only one possible? I'm from NI but prefer the periphery of Britain to independence. My cousin in Quebec doesn't want to leave Canada. Ditto her sister in California, and the USA?

But then again as Irish people we're a bit more into self-determination than others

As above, you prefer shared teams; you don't understand others' preference for a different self-determination;at the practical politics level your Governments have never made any real effort to move the border in Ireland, or to give those citizens living beyond it a chance to vote.

The havoc it will wreck upon the Northern Unionist identity is quite something

I doubt it. There'd be a brief period of hysterics then abnormal politics would resume (ie, not a united Ireland nor independent NI).