Unelected "leaders"

[peadar1987]

I know I bang on about this, so I apologise in advance, but because of the number of 3 and 4 seaters you only need 40 something percent under our system.

Yup, I agree. But no system is perfect. We have this problem in Ireland, as well as the whole "parish pump" thing, in the US there's next to no government accountability*, and in, say, Holland, with straight PR, there's the list system, which is open to abuse by parties.


*I know it's the same here, but it's easier to hold a party to account at the ballot box when all of the opposition hasn't been starved to death by the FPTP system. If we had had the US system in Ireland, there would most likely only be three parties in the Dáil, FF, FG, and Labour, and the recent deserved decimation of FF might never have happened

[mypost]

Ridiculous argument by some here that the country didn't vote for a Taoiseach. They vote for Parties, not one person

They vote for candidates in local constituencies. The leader of the party with the most candidates elected, becomes Taoiseach. So the idea that people don't vote for a Taoiseach is wrong. The vote for the post is a technical process in the Dail, not a competition.

[BonnieShels]

They vote for candidates in local constituencies. The leader of the party with the most candidates elected, becomes Taoiseach. So the idea that people don't vote for a Taoiseach is wrong. The vote for the post is a technical process in the Dail, not a competition.

How many times on this forum must it be explained that the general electorate DO NOT vote for the Taoiseach. We never have and never will. We vote for parliament members who then in turn vote for the leader of the Government. Our votes by their nature influence how this vote is likely to go but they are not votes per se for the Taoiseach.

Also the Taoiseach is not the leader of the largest party in the Dáil.
The Taoiseach is the person elected by the Dáil as leader of the government.
Any member of the Dáil can be nominated as candidate for Taoiseach.
After the 2007 election Enda Kenny and Bertie Ahern were candidates for Taoiseach after the Dáil sat after the GE.

In 1948 the Taoiseach was John A Costello (FG). Richard Mulcahy was leader of FG at the time and remained as nominal leader throughout the 13th Dáil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_g...election,_1948

[mypost]

We vote for parliament members who then in turn vote for the leader of the Government. Our votes by their nature influence how this vote is likely to go but they are not votes per se for the Taoiseach.

And that's the key issue.

Any member of the Dáil can be nominated as candidate for Taoiseach. After the 2007 election Enda Kenny and Bertie Ahern were candidates for Taoiseach after the Dáil sat after the GE.

Enda Kenny was nominated, but the question put for the vote was "That Dáil Éireann nominates Bertie Ahern for appointment by the President to be Taoiseach", which he inevitably won.

[Gather round]

I know I bang on about this, so I apologise in advance, but because of the number of 3 and 4 seaters you only need 40 something percent under our system

Why don't you move to all five-seaters (or even six, like at Stormont)? Genuine question, sorry I'm not up to speed on the arguments against.

[Angus]

Sigh - lads with all respect to everyone who has posted on the nature of our system and that the Dail votes for the taoiseach - I respectully submit to you that I already know that !!

My point is that that system is utterly and completely unsatisfactory and I hate it. For us to have proper representation it has to change. I am not saying Cowen was appointed illegitimately - I am saying that it drives around the bloody twist that 4 out of our last 6 Taoisigh assumed office without us voting.

I know what our system is - I am submitting to you that it is unacceptable that our system is what it is - so respectfully, please do not respond with "the dail votes for Taoiseach" - we know that - my point is that system is a fraud and completely undemocratic

[jinxy lilywhite]

Sigh - lads with all respect to everyone who has posted on the nature of our system and that the Dail votes for the taoiseach - I respectully submit to you that I already know that !!

My point is that that system is utterly and completely unsatisfactory and I hate it. For us to have proper representation it has to change. I am not saying Cowen was appointed illegitimately - I am saying that it drives around the bloody twist that 4 out of our last 6 Taoisigh assumed office without us voting.

I know what our system is - I am submitting to you that it is unacceptable that our system is what it is - so respectfully, please do not respond with "the dail votes for Taoiseach" - we know that - my point is that system is a fraud and completely undemocratic

But it is not undemocratic. We vote in a GE to elect TD's. they sit in a big room and vote on who they want to lead the house. The winner then goes to the president who we directly vote in to give him or her the seal of office.
if you don't like it, set up a petition, get signatories for a referenda on the issue and an amendment to the constitiution

[Macy]

Why don't you move to all five-seaters (or even six, like at Stormont)? Genuine question, sorry I'm not up to speed on the arguments against.

It was essentially a gerrymander by FF, but FG benefitted enough not to kick up too much. When the pundits talk of a "seat bonus", it's basically because 3 and 4 seaters. Ironically (and very funnily), FF turned out to be on the wrong side of it in the last election.

Sigh - lads with all respect to everyone who has posted on the nature of our system and that the Dail votes for the taoiseach - I respectully submit to you that I already know that !!

My point is that that system is utterly and completely unsatisfactory and I hate it. For us to have proper representation it has to change. I am not saying Cowen was appointed illegitimately - I am saying that it drives around the bloody twist that 4 out of our last 6 Taoisigh assumed office without us voting.

I think what people are getting at is that it is satisfactory and democratic. Just because it drives you around the twist, and you want some presidential model with a directly elected Taoiseach doesn't mean the rest of us agree. Two of them "elected" (using your logic) were Haughey and Ahern - those worked out great, didn't they?

Isn't it actually 3 out 6 anyway? Kenny, Haughey, Ahern were leaders of their party pre-election, Reynolds (who was taoiseach after the following election anyway, so not sure how he'd be counted), Bruton and Cowen weren't leaders of their party in the previous election. Going from before Kenny, brings you to Fitzgerald, who was also leader of his party going into the election. Before that you're going back to Dev passing on to Lemass, and then Lemass to Lynch. It's hardly common enough to change the entire system? imo, only Bruton is the dodgy one, and even then if he hadn't been so stubborn regarding Democratic Left he'd have been in anyway.

[mypost]

I think what people are getting at is that it is satisfactory and democratic. Just because it drives you around the twist, and you want some presidential model with a directly elected Taoiseach doesn't mean the rest of us agree. Two of them "elected" (using your logic) were Haughey and Ahern - those worked out great, didn't they?

Isn't it actually 3 out 6 anyway? Kenny, Haughey, Ahern were leaders of their party pre-election, Reynolds (who was taoiseach after the following election anyway, so not sure how he'd be counted), Bruton and Cowen weren't leaders of their party in the previous election. Going from before Kenny, brings you to Fitzgerald, who was also leader of his party going into the election. Before that you're going back to Dev passing on to Lemass, and then Lemass to Lynch. It's hardly common enough to change the entire system? imo, only Bruton is the dodgy one, and even then if he hadn't been so stubborn regarding Democratic Left he'd have been in anyway.

The difference here is that some posters are sticking to the technicalities of Dail votes, versus other arguments that the electorate, through voting for constituency candidates, decide how the Dail vote will eventually be. Technically, every bill and every piece of legislation (including the Taoiseach motion) is voted by just 165 people. But we live in a representative democracy, and the electorate have the final say on all issues, by electing candidates with the party policies they want approved in the Dail, and implemented.

[Angus]

Haughey to my mind was not elected to the office of Taoiseach - he was appointed by the FF parliamentary party, Lynch having resigned. Bizarrely, constitutionally, our Taoiseach on paper is a stronger constitutional office thatn the US President, who can pretty much do nothing without Congressional support.

Our Taoiseach is better paid !! And what I am saying is that while legitimate, I find it bloody annoying that a load of these guys were not elected to that position by us - they were accidental appointments of a small club based on arbitary short term arithmetic

Bertie in retrospect was a disaster - but he won 3 elections fair and square so no-one can begrudge his entitlement to have had the office - similiarly with Kenny.

In response to mypost who said that the electorate have the final say - yes we do - but that final say is so blunted and ineffective that it is almost meaningless. When we tip up every 4 or 5 years we are voting on a combination of performance on a whole range of issues and also future plans on a whole range of issues - all fine and well, but because our local government and Seanaid is an utter waste of time, by the time a GE comes around, we tick the box having regard to 200 different issues - national and local

I accept what everyone is saying - and yes the fact we get to vote makes it a democracy (or a republic at least) but I don't find it democratic

[peadar1987]

To be honest, I don't think the Taoiseach has that much real power. Sure, he technically selects the cabinet, but I doubt it's him who has most of the say. It'll all be decided by senior party members, regardless of which one is chosen to be the face of power.

[dahamsta]

Irish politics all comes down to who's got what on whom. That's why Haughey didn't go to jail, Bertie hasn't been caught yet, Cowen isn't pig farming, Martin Cullen isn't flipping burgers, and Lowry hasn't been arrested.

[Macy]

Haughey to my mind was not elected to the office of Taoiseach - he was appointed by the FF parliamentary party, Lynch having resigned.

He was subsequently "elected" though. As was Reynolds.

[mypost]

The leader in Ukraine is in a bit of a quandary atm. Having "won" a rigged election 9 years ago, then lost the real one, he subsequently won later elections.

Now, he has 2 options, neither pleasant. Sign the latest EU deal on the table and he will lose his gas supply. Don't sign it and he has baying crowds protesting on his doorstep looking to remove him without an election.

[culloty82]

Ukraine is a rather interesting geopolitical crossroads, with the Western half largely Ukrainian Catholics and the Eastern section predominantly Russian Orthodox, as exemplified by the current protests and the Dynamo/Shakhtar dynamic. Khrushchev (Ukrainian himself) Russified the region by transferring Crimea from Russia in the Soviet era, and the current pro-European area was once governed by Austria-Hungary, so ultimately a partition may be necessary for each population to follow their own political paths.