Adam Barton

[paul_oshea]

Good point - though i meant football - but other sporting codes differ in their eligibilty criteria i.e. cricket and rugby.

But maybe you were talking of other sports?

[Gather round]

BUt i don't think anyone born in ROI would ever want to play for NI or England

Why not? They might have

a) grown up partly, mainly or almost entirely in NI/ England, and feel Northern Irish/ English, or

b) given a choice, declare for the team more likely to qualify for finals and maybe even challenge to win them, or

c) given that choice, declare for the team more likely to cap them early and afterwards, or

d) fallen out with the FAI, like Stephen Ireland claims he did. (I'm not claiming SI was eligible for anyone other than RoI, don't write in if he isn't)

PS I was in Chelmsley Wood (large new town near Birmingham, local equivalent of Tallaght) after the parade last Sunday week. And was talking to a family from Mayo all dressed in their finery. Very colorful, it was

[Not Brazil]

An interesting case would be for someone born in ROI to declare for England with only links to ROI. And yes that is possible, if its possible for someone born in England(for example) who has a grandparent in NI to play for NI or England or whoever.

How is it possible?

[paul_oshea]

I meant someone who was born and bred in ROI. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

[paul_oshea]

How is it possible?

Given the critieria which ive mentioned before and others are alluding too that having a grandparent born on the Island of Ireland allows anyone born outside of Ireland to declare for ROI(i.e. by acquiring nationality through registration).

If you have a parent born in Ireland before 1947, they can apply for a british passport, and therefore so can you, i.e. acquiring nationality through your parent holding a british passport. Maik Taylor being an example here, i think? Cant the home associations technically pick anyone who is british as NI have done in the past.

[Not Brazil]

I meant someone who was born and bred in ROI. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

How could someone "born and bred" in the Republic Of Ireland, with only links to the Republic Of Ireland, be eligible to play for England?

[paul_oshea]

Actually NB, if the link is heritage as stutts made out about blatters comments then perhaps the acquiring a nationality through parentage or whatever might not be possible.

[DannyInvincible]

Is Adam Barton in the same boat as Carl Magnay? Some interesting comments in there.

In case I'm accused of going back on my word - indeed, like EG, I once assumed that article 15 only applied to those who were Irish nationals from the moment of birth (I think there was a point when it generally seemed to be taken for granted for some reason; possibly why EG still holds on to that belief) - because I realise my current understanding of where and when articles 15 and 17 might apply differs somewhat now to what it was then, I've tried to explain my change in thinking in post #131 of this thread after having read what geysir had written here. In considering that Alex Bruce and Adam Barton must be eligible to play for us - otherwise, FIFA wouldn't permit it - I've been trying to work out how exactly this is the case and that involves looking at the statutes from another tack, be it that their nationality is also deemed permanent and they qualify under article 15 or that they are deemed to be assuming a new nationality and the jurisdiction of the IFA is deemed by FIFA to equate to the "territory" of the FAI for the purposes of player eligibility as Irish nationality law has application there, meaning they qualify under article 17. I'll try and outline later when I get a bit of time why I think they might not be deemed in the eyes of FIFA to be acquiring a new nationality.

[Not Brazil]

Cant the home associations technically pick anyone who is british as NI have done in the past.

A British Citizen is required to meet the requirements of Article 16 in order to play for one of the Home Associations.

If a player has a British passport, but no territorial relationship, he can choose for which of the British Associations he wants to play e.g. a player who was born on the Cayman Islands and holds British nationality can choose to play for any of the four British Associations if called up by a British Association.

[paul_oshea]

There ye go. thats what i meant i just didnt know the "article" in question. Isn't this how taylor was eligible?

[Not Brazil]

Actually NB, if the link is heritage as stutts made out about blatters comments then perhaps the acquiring a nationality through parentage or whatever might not be possible.

To play for England (or, indeed, any of the British Associations) you must have British Citizenship as a prerequisite.

[Not Brazil]

There ye go. thats what i meant i just didnt know the "article" in question. Isn't this how taylor was eligible?

The rules have changed since Taylor became eligible.

My understanding is that Taylor would no longer be eligible to play for Northern Ireland under current rules.

[DannyInvincible]

TBH I'm not 100% sure how Barton is eligible to play for us and without knowing Barton's complete circumstances, his grandparent was most likely born at a time when, in the eyes of FIFA, NI was part of the FAI's "footballing territory". The IFA have previously suugested that both the FAI and IFA claimed to be the governing footballing bodies for the island of Ireland between the 1920's - 1950's. This is a time when the IFA wasn't a member of FIFA.

That's an interesting take on matters and, I suppose, it's possible. I know it's going back a fair bit and the rules as they were then were nothing like how they are now, but take Andrei Kanchelskis as an example of someone who was eligible to play for Russia by virtue - I think - of being born in the Soviet Union (Russia being the official successor team of the Soviet Union in the eyes of FIFA), despite the place of his birth being in modern Ukraine and he being of Lithuanian heritage. It would be interesting to know whether, for example, Ukrainian players born post the break-up of the Soviet Union with parents born in what was then the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic are eligible to represent Russia by virtue of their parents having been born in the territory of the predecessor of the Russian Football Union.

Is it possible to contact anyone at FIFA, or the FAI for that matter, to actually confirm matters once and for all? I suppose it would save us all a lot of typing.

[DannyInvincible]

Why not? They might have

a) grown up partly, mainly or almost entirely in NI/ England, and feel Northern Irish/ English, or

b) given a choice, declare for the team more likely to qualify for finals and maybe even challenge to win them, or

c) given that choice, declare for the team more likely to cap them early and afterwards, or

d) fallen out with the FAI, like Stephen Ireland claims he did. (I'm not claiming SI was eligible for anyone other than RoI, don't write in if he isn't)

PS I was in Chelmsley Wood (large new town near Birmingham, local equivalent of Tallaght) after the parade last Sunday week. And was talking to a family from Mayo all dressed in their finery. Very colorful, it was

Indeed, sure isn't loyal Northern Ireland fan, 'fhtb', a Donegal man?

Funnily enough, Stephen Ireland was actually eligible to play for not only England, but also Italy, would you believe?

[OwlsFan]

Sure he's only a kid. I didn't know my arse from my elbow at that age.

So what used you stick in a basin of warm water to see if it was hot :O ?

[DannyInvincible]

OK, Blatter's English might not be perfect, but "birthright" is a fairly straightforward word i.e. "by right of birth". He didn't qualify his point with talk of "heritage" (or ancestry) that I recall, nor was it alluded to in the BBC/Sunday Life report.

There was no reason for anyone to allude to heritage or ancestry as the issue didn't arise with Gibson et al.

But if as you say, such a person is NOT (automatically) an Irish national at the moment of birth, but subsequently becomes an Irish National after being Registered etc, I cannot conceive of how he is doing anything other than "acquiring a new nationality". Indeed, any other interpretation would be illogical (imo), even absurd.

OK, let's give it a go.

I'll refer to the example of Bobby Zamora, as geysir did in the eligibility thread. He represented England at under-21 level prior to being called into the senior Trinidad and Tobago squad, for who he was also eligible through his father, a number of years later in 2009. He pulled out of the squad due to injury, however, before making an appearance for them and later went on to receive a senior cap in 2010 with England during a friendly against Hungary.

Then there's Michael O'Connor, who is much closer to home. O'Connor captained Northern Ireland at every level below under-21 level, which is when he decided to declare for us. Subsequently, he was called into our under-21 squad but never made an appearance. He then went on to play for Northern Ireland once again at under-21 level and later at competitive 'A' international level.

It would appear that each of those players made two changes of association: England to Trinidad and Tobago and back to England again for Zamora; Northern Ireland to Ireland and back to Northern Ireland again for O'Connor. However, as we know, article 18 only permits one change of association. Thus, the assumption has to be that Zamora's "switch" from England to Trinidad and Tobago and O'Connor's "switch" from Northern Ireland to Ireland must not have been deemed to be formal changes of association at all in FIFA's eyes due to the fact that neither player ever lined out for their "new" association.

Tony Kane is another player relevant here. His situation is slightly different to the two aforementioned as he made what would appear to be two changes of association - from the IFA to the FAI and back to the IFA again - and actually lined out for both associations' teams on each respective occasion. He played for Northern Ireland at under-18 and under-19 level before going on to represent Ireland at under-21 level. All his games for Ireland were non-competitive. He then switched back to Northern Ireland for whom he went on to play competitively at under-21 level as well as having received a call-up into the senior squad.

The implication of this is that FIFA must only deem a competitive appearance to effect a formal change of association. In their eyes, assuming all Kane's appearances for Ireland at under-21 level were non-competitive (Wikipedia claims they were with citations), it would seem that he was never deemed to have made a change of association at all. The same applies to Zamora and O'Connor.

And so, to consider Barton's case:

i) Barton is a British citizen from birth.
ii) He's eligible to play for Northern Ireland by virtue of having a grandparent born there. This also entitles him to claim Irish citizenship.
iii) Barton is called up to the Northern Ireland squad and plays in a non-competitive senior friendly game against Morocco.
iv) Barton is later called into Ireland's under-21 squad for a non-competitive friendly against Portugal.
v) Presumably, at some point before being called up to represent Ireland, Barton has registered his birth with the Foreign Births Register in Ireland and has acquired a permanent Irish citizenship effective from the date of registration.
vi) Because Barton never made a competitive appearance for Northern Ireland, if he goes on to represent us in a competitive fixture, it is entirely plausible that FIFA will not have considered him to have made any change of association, but rather, merely declared for what you might call an original association.

Naturally, to represent us in the first place, he would have to possess Irish nationality before hand rather than having acquired it whilst with another association; of course, he hasn't been registered with another association. Thus, he is not acquiring or assuming a new nationality to make a change of association. In these circumstances, once Barton was to make a competitive appearance for Ireland, it is possible that his nationality would be officially registered with FIFA as solely or primarily Irish as there would have been no need for them to take heed or keep record of his irrelevant British nationality given that his Irish nationality is also permanent in nature from the date he registered his birth with the Foreign Births Register and not dependent on residence. In effect, what I'm saying is that he is possibly qualifying to play for us via the provision laid out in article 15. If Barton was to later go on and represent England, however, after playing a competitive game for us, but not a competitive 'A' international fixture, I could see how he would then be considered to be assuming a new nationality for the purposes of changing association despite British having been his nationality from birth.

Does that make sense/add up?

FIFA see it differently because Irish citizenship is an entitlement from birth, whether or not you have to fill in a form. There are no other requirements such as residency.

It has nothing to do with entitlement from birth though. FIFA's rules mention nothing about entitlement from birth. Rather, it has to do with the nationality being of a permanent nature and not reliant on residence.

[Wangball]

There're examples from other sporting codes and underage football to suggest otherwise.

Other sporting codes certainly but underage football? You got any examples of people born here who've played for England?

[paul_oshea]

I think there was one mentioned on here before wankball.

[Wangball]

I think there was one mentioned on here before wankball.

Freudian slip there pal?

[paul_oshea]

Whoops sorry, i read yer name wrong! apologies. I cant go and edit it now though, as it would look like a freudian slip. I'm sure you understand.

Btw I didn't know we were pals? I dont think i even know you!