I've made it pretty clear that your oft-repreated proposal irritates rather than frightens me, for reasons includingOriginally Posted by DI
a) it has nothing to offer NI Fans (who support the NI international side, to avoid any confusion), all of whom I'm aware of have reacted to it in the same way I have
b) it makes little sense if you break down to constituent parts. You (RoI fans) have a decent team drawing players and fans from all corners of the globe, and happily enjoying your flag, anthem and other symbols. Why pretend you want to give that up? As a wise poster on this site once said, imagine some future notional AI side, agreeing a whole set of new symbols, maybe playing half its games in Belfast. But then a rival NI based team is formed, plays friendlies with increasing local support and eventually gets UEFA and FIFA recognition. Yet the utopian new team would still have a contract to play half its games at Windsor....
c) I at least accept a united Ireland as a theoretical possibility, however remote. I'm pretty sure it would need to predate an AI side such as you'd prefer. But all the electoral and large-scale opinion survey evidence suggests it isn't happening for generations at least. Meantime, you'd hope that mediocre international football would go on...
Like I said, if you want to reform the FAI start a campaign. NI fans aren't interested in merging with your football team. While your longstanding obsession gets some grudging respect, it's ultimately pointless.Our aspirations are for ourselves
As you know, I think all single-issue nationalist and unionist parties in NI are basically sectarian.If supporting the idea of a united team is "sectarian" or "prejudiced", is the same also to be said of aspiring for a united Ireland?
Last edited by Gather round; 07/12/2015 at 3:00 PM.
My previous replies equated the broadly mindless drivel of the two groups' prejudice. I'll of course accept that one particular chant can be more frightening and intimidating while another merely iritates, as I said.
Charlie- now don't start getting all precious about the English language. Prejudice is a fair description of what I'm talking about.
What's prejudiced about saying "if a united Ireland team is broadly accepted across both countries, that would be good"?
It ignores reality- the idea isn't broadly accepted, never really has been, and there's little actual evidence that this is about to change.
This is really another of those logic puzzles I mentioned earlier, basically 'if your auntie had balls would s/he be your uncle?'. The Colonel or DI will know its technical name
And what you're saying is basically that if your auntie had balls and you called him your uncle that would be sexist prejudice.
Transgender sensitivity is an alternative, and there may be others
But is it not blatantly obvious to you that one side wants no part of any consensually-agreed discussion and dialogue, don't wish to form a new identity, have no interest in mutual compromise? Rather, they view it (absolutely correctly, in my view) as the NI team being abolished and subsumed into an Irish team.
I'm not pretending I want to give that up. I'm simply saying I would consider doing so or would be prepared to do so as a sacrifice or compromise if it enhanced the likelihood or greater good (in my opinion) of unity.
It will be interesting to see whether a nationalist majority in the north will stir a communal re-awakening of sorts and inspire change from the present approach of "going along with the status quo". Remember these figures?:c) I at least accept a united Ireland as a theoretical possibility, however remote. I'm pretty sure it would need to predate an AI side such as you'd prefer. But all the electoral and large-scale opinion survey evidence suggests it isn't happening for generations at least. Meantime, you'd hope that mediocre international football would go on...
Anyhow, rather paradoxically, the more peaceful or "normalised" the north becomes - or through the eradication of unionist mistrust of nationalism/republicanism - the more likely I think a united Ireland will become, as, with greater cross-communal trust (one would assume), unionists may no longer fear it so much or may no longer be as inclined to reject it flat-out on emotional, ethno-cultural grounds before even beginning to consider a multitude of other important factors.
Theoretically-speaking, say if the FAI did adopt new nationalist-and-unionist-friendly/representative symbolism, began playing games in Belfast too and began truly presenting itself as the association of all traditions (including unionist/British) on the island, how would you react if unionist-background players from the north began declaring for the FAI?Like I said, if you want to reform the FAI start a campaign. NI fans aren't interested in merging with your football team. While your longstanding obsession gets some grudging respect, it's ultimately pointless.
You're pretty much saying that having an opinion on the constitutional status of the north is inherently sectarian? Anyhow, the constitutional status is an umbrella for a wide spectrum of political, social, cultural and economic issues; it's not really a single, sideline or niche issue.As you know, I think all single-issue nationalist and unionist parties in NI are basically sectarian.
If someone ignores reality, that would make them an idealist, or naive, at worst; it wouldn't make them a prejudiced sectarian. There's nothing prejudiced about investigating means by which we can attempt to convince and compromise with others; that's just peaceful persuasion. Coercion, encroachment or trampling against the will of NI supporters/unionists would be a different matter, but who's advocating that here?
There's no necessary logical connection between how broadly accepted something might be and how prejudiced it might be. Broadly accepted ideas can be prejudiced or not; likewise, unpopular ideas can to tolerant and inclusive or not.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 07/12/2015 at 5:38 PM.
GR and NI fans make their present feelings pretty clear, which is why I'm having a discussion to try and ascertain whether or not there's any room whatsoever for future manoeuvre. Some of those feelings - the notion that my proposal is "sectarian", "prejudiced", "eccentric" and "dishonest", for example - are grounded in misunderstanding, in my view, so I'm trying to assuage such concerns, shed further light on what I'm proposing and see where we stand then.
It's not possible to have an absolutely correct view on this considering there hasn't been a merger or joining of the two sides, so we have no idea what form it would or might take. It can be theoretically framed however we wish here for the purposes of that discussion; if the FAI joined the IFA as a subsidiary, say, and the IFA maintained their records (at the expense of the FAI's), their present symbols and played in Belfast, but represented 32 counties, would you deem that an abolition or subsuming of the NI team?
It's not realistic practically, obviously, nor is it something I would endorse, but perhaps it is something towards which NI fans would feel sympathetic or even supportive. If some sort of 32-county entity is something with which some NI fans might be willing to along, maybe it's a start at least and we can go from there.
Poll after poll the majority of people in the North are in favour of the change. Northern Ireland fans aren't in favour, but they won't be. These are the same people who make Windsor Park such a hostile place that only 60% of Protestants would be willing to go there if offered tickets. The decent people of the North aren't interested in waving divisive flags at sports events. NI fans seem to revel in it.
It's not a one way street of course. Sadly there is a small element of saturday night rebels from Belfast among our support but it is greatly watered down but the fans from the rest of the country.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-34255124.html
The logic of this is to bring people together. That is not sectarian in any context. And as it happens I have a pretty big problem with being accused of being sectarian. Please leave personal insults out of this.
Last edited by backstothewall; 07/12/2015 at 8:23 PM.
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
He's just on the wind-up if not sh*t-stirring, best to ignore.
I've always read backtowalsall as backstothewall, until GR separated the words in the previous page!
I think the username reflected their ideas on where Staunton should have gone when Ireland manager.
We know!
And there was me thinking he must have spent some time in prison
It's not the first time someone has said that. I might get it changed. It is indeed a Staunton reference but it feels old. A bit like getting a CV from someone and them having an email address that they obviously set up when they were in school in the 90s
Please no, not on account of my illiteracy.
Not at all. It's been bugging me for a whilePlease no, not on account of my illiteracy.
Change it to I'mdegaffer.
Though not with distinguishing between NI fans and decent people as two entirely distinct groups, I notice. You make my point for me.
Poll after poll suggests a lot of people support the RoI and many others don't follow football. In such circumstances those in the latter group are quite likely to give a positive-sounding answer to a leading question, particularly if they don't know that a) there's already an all-Ireland and beyond representative team, and/or b) NI's top performers in numerous other sports prefer other representative sides, be that NI alone, Britain or occasionally England.Poll after poll the majority of people in the North are in favour of the change. Northern Ireland fans aren't in favour, but they won't be. These are the same people who make Windsor Park such a hostile place that only 60% of Protestants would be willing to go there if offered tickets
Not the most academically rigorous question in that survey (which was generally about public health).
They're already living, working etc. more or less together, they just support different sports teams and politics.The logic of this is to bring people together
Obviously I'll defer to your greater knowledge of your support, but in my experience (the occasional game as a neutral, and before that living in the South), the most hard-core Irish Nationalists aren't necessarily from NI.It's not a one way street of course. Sadly there is a small element of saturday night rebels from Belfast among our support but it is greatly watered down but the fans from the rest of the country
Still, you admit a problem which we can address?
I'll reply to DI's latest posts tomorrow I hope.
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