QuoteHmm, doesn't sound that right.
John Delaney singing an IRA song in a pub doesn't exactly help cross-border understanding.Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
http://www.independent.ie/incoming/f...-30773184.html
If the North and Republic somehow manage to meet at Euro 2016 it will be a nasty, bitter, and possibly violent affair - not amongst the players or management, but amongst the fans. Judging by a lot of people posting here, old-style sectarianism is alive and well - certainly as much among ROI supporters as the North.
Hmm, doesn't sound that right.
Nah, nothing would happen.
Old style sectarianism on here?
You mean us Taigs shouldn't criticise our Loyalist masters and their bigotry?
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
The John Delaney matter was discussed at length on here and I was critical because I thought allowing himself to be publicly recorded singing a song that would be so unpopular with many compounded his lack of professionalism: http://foot.ie/threads/193572-The-Jo...y-Thread/page6
I thought Stutts made a good post on the matter too: http://foot.ie/threads/193572-The-Jo...=1#post1794525
Anyhow, the main point I was making is that the IFA and NI fans profess to be inclusive of all, yet things like 'GSTQ' and the flag run in the face of that. They can wave or sing whatever unionist/loyalist symbols they want for all I care - they can sing even the 'Billy Boys' if they want - but it's a bit insincere to simultaneously claim to be inclusive of nationalists whilst doing so or to harry or expect the allegiance of nationalists and accuse of bitterness/bigotry those who would naturally feel culturally uncomfortable in such an environment.
The FAI does not purport to represent the unionist identity in the way the IFA purports to represent the nationalist community. That's the difference and why we were discussing the IFA's assertion that it is inclusive of nationalists as well as unionists.
I wouldn't envisage trouble if the two sides were to meet at the Euros. There'd be chanting and a bit of baiting, I'm sure. Much of it might even be good-natured, or banter, as they say - we're not all rabid haters just itching to throw a few bricks - but what makes you think it would turn violent?
Can you highlight some of the "old-style sectarianism" that is so "alive and well" here? You've accused "a lot of people" of being guilty of it, so it shouldn't be too hard to find a few examples that were supported or went unchallenged, if there are numerous examples of it at all. I have a distinct feeling you made a similar accusation before(?), but you're not so respectful of the religious choices/expressions of others (Mikhail Kennedy, in the following instance) yourself, are you?: http://foot.ie/threads/119079-Potent...=1#post1837960
A meeting's quite possible. Only a few strong squads can realistically look to win the thing, but don't rule out any of the 24 teams making the last eight.
There would be an edge, sure. A lot would be stirred by the mainstream media as well as on sites like this. On the other hand, France is very much on edge after recent events and the Gendarmes aren't likely to tolerate scuffles involving beered-up foreigners. I'm with DI on this one.
Put another way, the FAI doesn't fully purport to represent Nationalist football players and fans in NI; obviously, as it isn't usually there. It'll be an IFA coach spotting the next schoolgirl star at Our Lady of Lourdes PS in Swatragh, or wherever
As I've said before on here, the real if unstated aim of Football for All is to get middle-class Unionists (for want of a more precise term) to watch NI. If those from Nationalist backgrounds want to come, great, but it's broadly accepted that their support is elsewhere.it's a bit insincere to simultaneously claim to be inclusive of nationalists whilst doing so or to harry or expect the allegiance of nationalists and accuse of bitterness/bigotry those who would naturally feel culturally uncomfortable in such an environment
What you call cultural discomfort is often and sadly a euphemism for ill-informed expressed prejudice. That's what tends to get criticised.
I make only a few reasonable requests of the FAI and its supporters. Here are two; don't tolerate witless cartoon Provo antics from your CEO; and shut the fcuk up about any all-Ireland side beyond the one you already have. Both are at least as and arguably much more sectarian/ bigoted/ provocative than any GSTQ version or Union Jack waving.
I agree with this point about an all-Ireland side. There exists the option to represent the ROI team, that the likes of James McClean and Marc Wilson have exercised. The option was open to, for example, Neil Lennon and Steven Davis but neither exercised it. That is very likely because they may have felt that the ROI side wouldn't have represented them or their identity (one more than the other, perhaps). So, an all-Ireland team would have to dilute the identities of both the ROI and NI sides to reach a common ground. And, as someone who is from Munster and has no links to the north, I'm not sure I'd be all too happy with that. I feel the current Ireland team with the tri-colour and Amhrán na bhFiann and players from the north who identify with these is fine as it is.
By the way, I support the rugby team and that has been an all-Ireland team for a lot longer than I've been on this land.
As ever with this topic, my perspective may be blinkered or ignorant of some nuances but that's not with the intention of bigotry or anything like that.
The FAI represent the ROI and all those who want to play, support etc; regardless of background, creed or colour; all are welcome. You're incredibly over estimating any lingering historic troubles attitudes and feelings from down south through your own prism of the still ongoing (albeit nowhere near what it was, thank Christ) stuff in the fishbowl up north and applying them and your own beliefs to ourselves down here.A meeting's quite possible. Only a few strong squads can realistically look to win the thing, but don't rule out any of the 24 teams making the last eight.
There would be an edge, sure. A lot would be stirred by the mainstream media as well as on sites like this. On the other hand, France is very much on edge after recent events and the Gendarmes aren't likely to tolerate scuffles involving beered-up foreigners. I'm with DI on this one.
Put another way, the FAI doesn't fully purport to represent Nationalist football players and fans in NI; obviously, as it isn't usually there. It'll be an IFA coach spotting the next schoolgirl star at Our Lady of Lourdes PS in Swatragh, or wherever
As I've said before on here, the real if unstated aim of Football for All is to get middle-class Unionists (for want of a more precise term) to watch NI. If those from Nationalist backgrounds want to come, great, but it's broadly accepted that their support is elsewhere.
What you call cultural discomfort is often and sadly a euphemism for ill-informed expressed prejudice. That's what tends to get criticised.
I make only a few reasonable requests of the FAI and its supporters. Here are two; don't tolerate witless cartoon Provo antics from your CEO; and shut the fcuk up about any all-Ireland side beyond the one you already have. Both are at least as and arguably much more sectarian/ bigoted/ provocative than any GSTQ version or Union Jack waving.
The vast, vast majority of us down here don't give a fiddlers fcuk about that sort of carry on that a lot of ye up there are still mired in, on both sides of the divide. Party politics and religion have absolutely no place in football and the sooner ye can move on from that the better ye'll be.
As to your comments on the previous page re: the groups/ rankings/ Poland etc, that's a ridiculous strawman argument to make and you well know it.
Anyway, the best of luck to the North, was delighted they got through and all the best to ye. Hopefully it leads to an increased interest from all sides in the national team and the domestic game up there as well.
Fair enough. One problem in linking your points is that the existing example of an all-Ireland team doesn't do very much to dilute its RoI identity. One game in NI in 50 years, and even then the IRFU treated it as an way fixture. You know the rest, I won't labor the point
Steady on. I haven't exaggerated or filtered anything. Both 'John Delaney is a cartoon Provo yet remains in charge of the FAI' and 'Anyone who wants an all-Ireland team which effectively means the end of a separate NI team' is clearly prejudiced' are both statements of the obvious.
You personally don't, fine: you clearly aren't in the 'vast vast' majority that you think. It's daft to claim that the only RoI supporters hoping for an extended all-Ireland team are those in NI. I moved on from religious faith at primary school, btw. The NI conflict is about nationailty, which obviously does have a place in er, international football...The vast, vast majority of us down here don't give a fiddlers fcuk about that sort of carry on that a lot of ye up there are still mired in, on both sides of the divide. Party politics and religion have absolutely no place in football and the sooner ye can move on from that the better ye'll be
Wrong. I haven't misrepresented anyone else's point, merely pointing out thatAs to your comments on the previous page re: the groups/ rankings/ Poland etc, that's a ridiculous strawman argument to make and you well know it
a) the Germany/ Poland group wasn't self-evidently the strongest; I offered perfectly reasonable evidence to the contrary
b) undisprovable flights of fancy are pointless
False Cause and Burden of Proof respectively, if you want to talk logical fallacies?
Returned with thanks!Anyway, the best of luck to the North, was delighted they got through and all the best to ye. Hopefully it leads to an increased interest from all sides in the national team and the domestic game up there as well
Regarding the latter statement, the idea or aspiration of uniting (voluntarily) all communities on the island under one umbrella is "clearly prejudiced"? In what way is that an inherently or necessarily prejudiced ideal? It can be inclusive and embracing rather than exclusive and discriminatory. It would also mean the end of a separate FAI team as an entity (along with its nationalist-oriented identity/symbolism, presumably). Where would the prejudice in that be?
The first paragraph of my previous debunks this in practice; more importantly, NI fans have made clear we reject it in principle anyway. Hundreds of times on this thread alone.
There has only been one Rugby game in NI in 50 years because it was tried and our politicians up here made it entirely obvious that we aren't ready to host such an event and resist the temptation to turn it into a political football. There would doubtless have been a repeat if it had worked, but in any case NI football fans are in no position to be throwing stones about taking matches to a 2nd city this side of a game being played in Derry.
And just because you don't like an idea doesn't make it sectarian. People such as myself who are in favour of abolishing both teams want to generally do so with a view to drawing the poison out of the sport, not to get one over on NI fans.
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
But a single, united football team hasn't been in practice in modern times (or in nearly a century, more accurately), so we have no idea how it would or could play out. That's something that all parties concerned could mold and influence themselves. Everyone concerned would have agency/input and need not be dictated by the past. The present Ireland rugby team wouldn't necessarily have to represent a precedent. If it's still something you wouldn't want, that's fine, but it's a bit unfair to accuse those who would see constructive or enriching value in it and who would be prepared to make compromises at their own cultural expense of prejudice. There's no reason to presume the IFA and its identity would be subsumed into the present FAI and take on its identity either, nor would anyone be forcing anyone into anything. It's a matter of simply presenting an option or trying to work out its viability; there's nothing prejudiced about that, is there? Calling to exclusively abolish the IFA/NI team or expecting the IFA to be subsumed by the FAI would be a different matter, but that's not what I'm presenting.
Why would there be an 'edge'? There was so little 'edge' the last time the two sides met your boys felt comfortable chanting their bigoted drivel in the middle of the Irish national stadium and nobody batted an eyelid bar remarking what an odd group of group of middle-aged children they were.
The IRFU schedule rugby matches, not the DUP. There are plenty of similar high-profile rugby matches in Belfast which go ahead without problem. The IRFU created what you call a political football by choosing not to repeat the international. Of course I realise the Ulster Branch accepted this, but let's not pretend it was their idea
Silly comparison. A cross-border sports team staging games on both sides is more fundamental than which provincial grounds NI play lower-profile internationals at. I'd welcome such fixtures in Drumahoe or at the Brandywell for what it's worth, so less of the melodrama about stone throwing please.but in any case NI football fans are in no position to be throwing stones about taking matches to a 2nd city this side of a game being played in Derry
|I explained why your obsession with abolishing my team is prejudiced and offered plenty of synonyms if you have a particular problem with being described as sectarian. In a specific NI context your attitude IS sectarian.And just because you don't like an idea doesn't make it sectarian. People such as myself who are in favour of abolishing both teams want to generally do so with a view to drawing the poison out of the sport, not to get one over on NI fans
Claiming you want to abolish your own team looks somewhere between eccentric and dishonest. Try explaining it to fans from anywhere else outside Ireland, you'll get bemusement and ridicule.
Whether or not you want the abolition to be exclusive is irrelevant- it would still be an abolition. If you want major reform of the FAI fine, lobby them and stop winding up NI fans.
By definition, the game would be a knockout at a major championship, rather than a one-sided friendly featuring U-19 kids and part-time Irish League cloggers. Held in a country sensitive to security at football matches.
Many of your fans are still talking about this fixture more than 20 years ago- so presumably it had edge then which might recur. But sure, you could be right: our fans might accept that yours and their equally bigoted drivel as discussed above doesn't need to be taken seriously.There was so little 'edge' the last time the two sides met your boys felt comfortable chanting their bigoted drivel in the middle of the Irish national stadium and nobody batted an eyelid bar remarking what an odd group of group of middle-aged children they were
Well that's a competitive edge on the field. Why do you think there'd be an edge between supporters other than the thankfully small number who may wish to transpose Northern Irish politics onto the game?
Nice try attempting to equate your boys bigoted drivel with any mild nationalism shown by Irish people down south.
I can only think it's through fear that you reject/mock it in such sharp terms; "sectarian", "prejudiced", "eccentric", "dishonest"? There's no need to fear what I'm presenting. I don't think any of those terms apply to what has been presented here. Why "dishonest"? I've been completely open about my motivations and intentions, and that I'd be prepared to compromise (the idea of which I know well isn't exactly popular at present within our own fanbase), so as to show I'd not be trying to sneakily pull the wool over anyone's eyes or con someone into something at entirely their expense. You wouldn't be the only one giving up something you cherish or "losing face", if that's the way you want to view it.
It's only "eccentric" insofar as our history and the particular circumstances are unique; partition was a fairly unusual means of post-colonial/imperial management, after all, otherwise experienced only by India, unless I'm mistaken (and possibly Poland in the context of the old Russian Empire?). Anyway, whether or not people outside of Ireland would understand it or not is immaterial; it has nothing to do with them and there's no need for us to be made feel embarrassed. Our aspirations are for ourselves - the Irish - and don't have to conform to anyone else's sense of "normality".
To "abolish" would imply forcibly putting an end to something, which simply wouldn't be the case. It would be consensually-agreed through discussion and dialogue. The identity of the new team would encompass both your Irish identity and ours; it's not as if one would be extinguished at the expense of the other, so it simply wouldn't be about "getting one over on them". It would be two groups coming together equally in mutual compromise.
If supporting the idea of a united team is "sectarian" or "prejudiced", is the same also to be said of aspiring for a united Ireland? Are, say, Sinn Féin and the SDLP inherently sectarian/prejudiced? Surely not and, if not, why the distinction? It's only as much an "obsession" as is your desire to see the north remain in the UK.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 07/12/2015 at 2:31 PM.
As I've explained both in recent posts on this thread and generally/ repeatedly on the forum, it goes beyond the local rivalry you might find elsewhere. For reasons both long-established (eg decades of paramilitary violence) and more recent (eg the eligibility row). I'm not trying to condone it, merely pointing out what should be obvious.
I'm quite prepared that overall there's more edge on our side than yours, although clearly this thread isn't the best evidence of that, with a small number of 'usual suspects' saying the same thing over and again.
It doesn't take many fans singing paramilitary songs (for example), or posting intimidating, moronic videos on youtube, to stir up the wider crowd.other than the thankfully small number who may wish to transpose Northern Irish politics onto the game?
Thanks, although little effort was required. Let me repeat one more time. Calling for the NI football team to be abolished isn't 'mild nationalism' to me, it's witless sectarian prejudice. Just like that shown by the NI fans you decry.Nice try attempting to equate your boys bigoted drivel with any mild nationalism shown by Irish people down south
Still, the Down South you describe sounds idyllic, even if it exists only in your imagination. It's a bit like how my mother refers the 1950s, when all men wore and doffed hats and no-one swore in public or farted at Church
Last edited by Gather round; 07/12/2015 at 2:10 PM.
Do you mean there'll be an edge between UK-based fans of the two teams? Possibly to some degree.
I know some of you up there like to scream sectarianism at the crack of an egg up there, but somebody expressing a personal preference for an all-Ireland team - something over which they have absolutely no control - is not prejudicial in any way other than perhaps against the English language. Equating it with singing songs about butchering Catholics is, as you say, witless.Thanks, although little effort was required. Let me repeat one more time. Calling for the NI football team to be abolished isn't 'mild nationalism' to me, it's witless sectarian prejudice. Just like that shown by the NI fans you decry.
Still, the Down South you describe sounds idyllic, even if it exists only in your imagination. It's a bit like how my mother refers the 1950s, when all men wore and doffed hats and no-one swore in public or farted at Church
You're equating singing about being up to one's knees in the blood of fenians with the aspiration of peacefully uniting people through mutual compromise and consent? Really?
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