Eligibility Rules, Okay

[DannyInvincible]

4 You may be encouraged by a common reaction among NI fans. We see qualification as a 30 year high, especially by winning the group; whereas you sneaked in only because the tournament is now so bloated. On the other hand, few of us expect an equally strong showing in 2018 qualifying. Half the regulars will retire. We'll replace Aaron Hughes (100-odd caps and 450 in the EPL) with a guy who was partnering the bass player from One Direction in Doncaster reserves not so long ago

"Sneaked in" is a tad ungenerous. You have to take the rules as they are and we fully deserve to be there. We had qualified for the play-offs with a game to spare and finished a comfortable third - three points ahead of Scotland - in what was probably the toughest group in qualifying. If Richard Keogh had buried his free header from six yards in the dying moments in Warsaw, we'd have qualified automatically. We beat the world champions along the way too. We were unseeded for the play-offs but still made it through convincingly after comprehensively defeating Bosnia (ranked around 20th, weren't they?) 3-1 on aggregate.

Congrats on topping your group, mind. I hope yous do well. Just not as well as we do. Christ, it would have been awful having to listen to it next summer had we not qualified!

5 The suggestion of a joint civic do at Belfast City Hall was- as usual in local politics- a witless stunt by one party knowing others will respond predictably

I thought it forward-thinking - the two native communities have two respective national teams, after all - but it was never going to get the green light.

7 With James McClean, it's even more so- accusing all our fans and most of the players of sectarianism marked his card even before the Poppy Day antics. Incidentally while his willingness to challenge Britain's militarism fetish is clearly brave, that hardly makes him an original thinker like Liam Brady in the 1980s

He opted out of wearing a poppy and offered a reasonable and eloquent explanation when none should even have been necessary; "antics" makes it sound like he was the one who was out of order or playing up.

I remember he called the Belfast Telegraph a "bitter sectarian paper", although they had rather derisively dubbed him a "turncoat" in a later-amended headline. Did he not just say something along the lines of that he didn't feel comfortable in Windsor Park with all the explicit unionist/loyalist symbolism?:

"I think any Catholic would be lying if they said they did feel at home, seeing all those Union Jacks and hearing the songs and the chants. I didn’t feel part of it..."

Did he say something else? Many NI fans are supportive of the idea of a new anthem in the hope of enhancing the perceived inclusivity of the team, so they presumably agree with him to a large extent. Even the IFA had Gerry Armstrong look into it although they seemed unprepared to take any sort of initiative. He generalises, OK - I'm sure there are other Catholic-background players who could overlook it or whatever - but there's foundation to what he says and other Catholic-background players - many from a Derry background - have also spoken of similar feelings of discomfort or alienation: http://www.academia.edu/11039988/Tra...rthern_Ireland

Then there's the Ulster Banner; a flag of an old unionist government, possessing no current official status, with loyalist paramilitary connotations. As I always say, the IFA can fly whatever flag they want, but it's unreasonable to then accuse nationalists/Catholics of bigotry or bitterness (as many NI fans do) if they want little to do with it or don't exactly feel at ease playing under it.

NI fans are also known to have sung the infamous 'Billy Boys' ("We're up to our necks in fenian blood; surrender or you'll die..."). I don't know if it would ever get an airing in Windsor Park nowadays - probably not, thankfully - but it was sung in Lansdowne Road during the Nations Cup a few years ago and, more recently, I saw a video of NI fans singing it in a Shankill pub in celebration of qualification for the Euros. Sure, they may not have been Windsor Park attendees, but it does nothing to help the reputation. NI fans also regularly do the bouncy. I'm not saying the bouncy is sectarian or malicious in any way. It's a perfectly innocent celebration, but it has non-nationalist connotations in the Windsor Park context on account of its association with Rangers, a club renowned for their historical anti-Irish Catholicism. It's fine that NI fans might want to do it; but it does have such mono-communal connotations nevertheless.

[DannyInvincible]

https://soundcloud.com/secondcaptain...-grealish-pout

Lengthy discussion on the possibility of an All-Ireland game. Richie Sadlier really irked me on this one. Comes across as a tad ignorant of those in the north that identify as Irish. Worth a listen.

Oisin McConville states he'd go to Ravenhill to see Ulster but not Windsor Park.

Good discussion. Enjoyed the listen.

Sadlier is very much of the post-nationalist persuasion, but he's entitled to feel that way, even if I think it unfortunate that so many in the south have no real trouble with the idea of "well, we've got our independence now, so that's the yoke off our shoulders/forget about the nordies" or with the sense of abandonment felt by many compatriots north of the border simply because of the imposition or construction of a line on a map. A sense of mild northern begrudgery or scorn can be witnessed in the sometimes-pejorative term for southerners used by northerners; "free-staters". The border didn't make anyone who found themselves north of it any less Irish overnight though. Northerners just happened to be treated differently by stroke of geographical location.

In saying that, of course many from nationalist backgrounds in the north are also relatively content with the 'status quo', for the time being or beyond perhaps, but nationalists wouldn't share that same sense of partitionist separation that Sadlier appears to feel. For him, it appears Ireland is a 26-county nation; I listened to the audio the other night but I'm pretty sure I recall him referring to the FAI as a "26-county entity" as well. That's not the case for me and it's not the case for even nationalists who are politically or economically content with the 'status quo' at present. It's not the case either as far as eligibility to play for the team is concerned; it's a 'de facto' all-island team - Irish nationality applies island-wide - and that is augmented by both the team's northern fanbase and players.

But then, as I say, people in the south are entitled not to feel burdened by guilt or by some sense of duty/national obligation born simply out of shared cultural identity, even if the constitution did/does pay lip-service to the aspiration of solidarity/unity. I'd personally prefer if there was greater and more vibrant sentiment for unity of all peoples on the island, but it's a free country at the end of the day and it's up to those who are in favour to do the persuasion.

I don't think Sadlier said anything particularly out of order or insulting, although his passive-aggressive opinion on republicans/republicanism ("when they start going on about it, you just want to take out your phone until they're finished talking", or something along those lines) says more about his wilful ignorance of how progressive and inclusive the unity ideal can be than it says about republicans. (See the Scottish indy-ref 'yes' campaign for an example of a very positive, progressive nationalist independence movement.) He claims he just doesn't care about it all, but he clearly possesses some degree of antipathy towards republicans/republicanism, judging by his comments; he sees it as a nuisance. Maybe there is an underlying nagging guilt there when the topic is raised, after all? Republicans are as entitled to express their political aspirations as he is. And, indeed, if he didn't want to partake in the discussion, why did he turn up in the first place?

Generally though, I'm a fan of Sadlier. He's outspoken and opinionated, but he is informed and ensures alternative views are aired, which is important, even if they're not always "right" or in accordance with convention. He's often compared to Dunphy, but Dunphy has a terrible habit of spouting ill-informed, error-ridden nonsense. Sadlier is rarely guilty of that and will make sure he's done his homework, from what I've seen/heard/read of him anyway.

[Gather round]

@DI:

If I'm a tad ungenerous, you're similarly defensive. Of course you deserve to be there as per the rules- there are 24 places, you're about the 22nd best team.

Your group wasn't the hardest just because a) you beat Germany (impressive though that was or b) the English media said it was because two English-style teams featured. At the start, it looked one of the easier- four teams in the Greece/ NI group did better in 2014 qualifying than everyone bar Germany in your group.

Ifs and buts are pointless. At roughly the same time Keogh missed that free header in Poland, our daydreaming defence conceded an equaliser to the Finns. But for that, we'd have outpointed the World Champions over 10 games, not just two.

The SDLP stunt, as you know perfectly well, had little to do with football, and was all about keeping the new youthful leadership in the news for a day or two longer. Alternatively, local politicans who are also fans (eg Marc Wilson's uncle) could have just invited the player(s) to a local school or similar.

I'm happy to withdraw “Poppy Day Antics” re McClean. As I've said here, his attitude was brave. But as well as the eloquent statements after that you have to consider the childish nonsense earlier on social media. I'm confident I've answered the other linked points on the McClean thread.

The 'Bouncy' thing is a bit obsessive. It's featured at grounds around England for years and has no specific NI nor Old Firm links.

Yes, Richie Sadlier referred to a “26 county entity”. He recognises reality. That's not to decry the Diaspora, or (in football terms) to have 18 players in an international squad who've never lived in the country etc. etc.

It's two free countries. Naughty Danny

Thanks for the good wishes. I think all 24 finalists can reasonably aspire to the last eight, although I'm only looking at four possible winners- France, Germany, Italy and Spain.

[DeLorean]

Your group wasn't the hardest just because a) you beat Germany (impressive though that was or b) the English media said it was because two English-style teams featured. At the start, it looked one of the easier- four teams in the Greece/ NI group did better in 2014 qualifying than everyone bar Germany in your group.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that, but we had an incomparably more difficult group to top, due to the presence of the world champions. There's no doubting that NI had a better, more efficient, campaign than we did, but I wouldn't swap for a second. We badly needed that win over a top seed and the follow up victory over another higher ranked team. That's all neither here nor there anyway, both countries are going to be present and both are ranked in Pot 4. You've every right to be proud of NI topping their group but it's pretty obvious talk of us 'scraping in' and being '22nd out of 24', etc. are smug little digs, probably just seeking a reaction. It does nothing enhance your points I'm afraid, which are interesting otherwise.

[Gather round]

we had an incomparably more difficult group to top, due to the presence of the world champions

You failed not only to finish ahead of the World Champions (difficult if not incomparably so), but to hold off the third seed (a great deal less difficult). Conversely, we overtook FOUR supposedly better teams to qualify with a game to spare

That's all neither here nor there anyway, both countries are going to be present and both are ranked in Pot 4

Agreed, it's all academic now. As above we and the other 22 have a realistic chance of the last eight.

it's pretty obvious talk of us 'scraping in' and being '22nd out of 24', etc. are smug little digs, probably just seeking a reaction. It does nothing enhance your posts I'm afraid

They back my argument, ergo they enhance the post. That's my intention, not excluding gentle banter to avoid irritating you. Lighten up and see ye for a croissant in the summer.

[jbyrne]

You failed not only to finish ahead of the World Champions (difficult if not incomparably so), but to hold off the third seed (a great deal less difficult). Conversely, we overtook FOUR supposedly better teams to qualify with a game to spare

Poland may have been third seeds in our group but they were far better than anything in NIs group.

[DeLorean]

You failed not only to finish ahead of the World Champions (difficult if not incomparably so), but to hold off the third seed (a great deal less difficult). Conversely, we overtook FOUR supposedly better teams to qualify with a game to spare

Agree with all of that bar sticking by my point that Romania and Germany are pretty much incomparable top seeds (Romania were the top seeds, right? If it was Greece it doesn't change anything anyway). Incomparable, infinitely more difficult, total long shot, whatever you want to call it really.

Not sure the bants backed up your argument, will have to take your word for that.

[jbyrne]

Agree with all of that bar sticking by my point that Romania and Germany are pretty much incomparable top seeds (Romania were the top seeds, right? If it was Greece it doesn't change anything anyway). Incomparable, infinitely more difficult, total long shot, whatever you want to call it really.

it was Greece. finishing below the faroes says it all really

[DeLorean]

Yeah, was kind of thinking it couldn't have been Romania the more thought I gave it.

[Gather round]

JB, Poland got the same qualifying points as NI. So actually the evidence (as opposed to your and DL's flights of fancy) is that they were of roughly the same standard. You should consider not just a one-off win against Germany, but four turkey-shoots against the weakest pair pf minnows and a failure twice to beat Scotland.

DL: you argued that to top Germany would have been incomparably difficult. As you didn't manage it the point's a bit, er, pointless.

[jbyrne]

JB, Poland got the same qualifying points as NI. So actually the evidence (as opposed to your and DL's flights of fancy) is that they were of roughly the same standard. You should consider not just a one-off win against Germany, but four turkey-shoots against the weakest pair pf minnows and a failure twice to beat Scotland.

my junior club got as many points as barcelona one season... doesn't mean we are as good as them. comparing what points each team got in different groups of varying quality is irrelevant. Poland would have topped your group

[Gather round]

Aye, like they romped home in 2014 qualifying.

Arguing the undisprovable is a bit childish, don'yt ye think?

[DeLorean]

DL: you argued that to top Germany would have been incomparably difficult. As you didn't manage it the point's a bit, er, pointless.

The point was that ye wouldn't have topped our group either, not a fact obviously but a fairly safe assumption I'm sure even you'd agree. It was in response to your 'bants' about topping yer group while we scraped though. Anyway, I agree, this is pointless overall, and I don't like croissants.

[SkStu]

Say what you like about scraping this or romping that or lighten up the other... but heres the facts. Of the 24 teams going to France, Northern Ireland are ranked 24th, Republic of Ireland are ranked 20th in the seedings.

http://www.footballseeding.com/inter...nts/euro-2016/

Great work to top your group and all but it doesn't make Northern Ireland a top team.

Ill be cheering for both next year!

[Gather round]

Say what you like about scraping this or romping that or lighten up the other... but heres the facts. Of the 24 teams going to France, Northern Ireland are ranked 24th, Republic of Ireland are ranked 20th in the seeding

Say what you like about a ranking system based on matches from as far back as 2010, NI won a quali group against all odds- something we last managed in 1958.

You're right of course, it doesn't make us a top team judged on results in ancient history.

Thanks for the good wishes. BTW there's an outside chance Caolan Lavery from Red Deer Alberta will challenge for the squad...

[DannyInvincible]

54 per cent of those surveyed in the Ulster University's 'Social Exclusion and Sport in Northern Ireland' study would support a single all-Ireland team: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-34255124.html

A majority of people in Northern Ireland would support an all-Ireland football team, new research has found.

More than half of the population (54%) would favour an all- island team, similar to the Irish Rugby team.

In terms of religious background, the majority in favour came from the Catholic community, with 69% supporting such a change compared to 39% of Protestants.

However former Irish Football Association (IFA) president Jim Boyce said two teams in Ireland allowed more players the opportunity to play for a national side.

[punkrocket]

It also provides a great opportunity for an extra gobsh*** to be president of a football association.

[Gather round]

54 per cent of those surveyed in the Ulster University's 'Social Exclusion and Sport in Northern Ireland' study would support a single all-Ireland team: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-34255124.html

Given that

a) there's already an all-Ireland-plus-various-other-corners-of-the-Globe team, which

b) patently has the support of rather less than 54% in NI


I suspect that survey isn't the most academically rigorous.

Coleraine University is more likely to abolish itself than the FAI, so don't hold your breath.

[Fixer82]

It also provides a great opportunity for an extra gobsh*** to be president of a football association.

ha ha well said

[Wolfman]

More circular whataboutery. Yawn.