Passionate stuff from Steven Reid here
http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-30749419.html
Why does he watch Ireland matches with Harry Redknapp & Mauricio Isla?
Found this very interesting:Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Makes for pretty bleak reading when it's all laid out like that.In total, under six different managers, including Noel King as caretaker boss for the victory over Kazakhstan last year, we have played 30 competitive home games since the 2002 World Cup and won just 13 of those, drawing 11 and losing six.
Worse again, those 13 wins were almost entirely against lower-ranked teams, Gibraltar, Kazakhstan, Macedonia, Cyprus (twice), Georgia (twice), the Faroes (twice), Albania, Wales and San Marino.
The 1-0 victory over Slovakia in 2007 under Steve Staunton stands out as a time when we went toe-to-toe against a higher ranked nation and came out on top. Otherwise the years post 2002 have been characterised by near misses.
We drew against Italy, Bulgaria, Austria, the Czechs, Russia and Israel despite taking the lead in all those games. We lost 2-1 to Sweden last year after going 1-0 up.
EDIT: probably better in the...'world ranking' thread, maybe? Not here anyway.
Came across the case of Gedion Zelalem and it seems to confirm the premise that acquiring citizenship and a passport as a minor is enough to acquire eligibility to play for that nation.
Born in Germany to Ethiopian parents. Moved to USA at the age of 9. Moved to England at the age of 16. His father has now naturalized as a USA citizen last month, and due to the fact that Gedion was under 18 at the time of this happening he also acquires this. He actually turns 18 later this month so the father got this through just in time so that it is automatically passed down.
The USMNT has congratulated Gedion and confirmed that they are getting the FIFA wheels in motion to transfer him. He did represent German youth teams in 2012-13.
So it seems to me that it confirms that acquiring a nationality as a minor counts as it being a 'permanent nationality' and that this is all that is required for such a player to become eligible for the new country.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...edion-zelalem/
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...ut-of-contract
Boo.
Ethiopia or Germany, no-one else.
I agree, but equally it's a really good post by Irwin3. Very interesting.
The discussion about minors (under 18) took place in the Noe Baba thread a while back, Irwin had asked a good question then, but I had thought (mistakingly?) it was proven beyond doubt there. The evidence of children of immigrants to Switzerland was proof positive of this. One has to consider that no kid u18 can legally apply for a passport without parental/guardian consent. The nationality the immigrant kid assumes, is automatically granted when the parents application is accepted, the kid does not not have to apply seperately for nationality. The parents have to acquired a new nationality, but the kid is granted the nationality automatically. Gideon's US citizenship actually becomes his default citizenship if he choses so.
If the father had applied after Gideon reached 18, then Gedion would have had to apply for US citizenship on his own and then most probably he would have reside in the US before and during his application process.
Last edited by geysir; 06/01/2015 at 10:41 PM.
Yeah, I was certainly thinking of the Noe Baba discussions when this news appeared. It certainly seems to reinforce the notion as seen through other various examples that acquiring nationality/passport as a minor fulfills FIFA eligibilty despite this not being explicitly stated in the statutes.
Another thing is that Gideon played for Germany before being made a USA citizen. He is now asking FIFA to change nationality. I thought the rule was you could only change associations after representing a country if you had always been eligible for the country you now want to change to. I'm guessing that it's another case where if you are a minor the rule is waived or the new nationality is retrospectively applied as always having been there.
I'm now reminded of another possible complication for Gideon down the line which I read when Besic was signing for Everton. German nationality law.
It looks like you might be able to keep both until you're 23.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...rth_in_Germany
"Such children will be required to apply to retain German citizenship by the age of 23. Assuming this law is not changed or overturned by a court, these persons will normally be required to prove they do not hold any other foreign citizenship. The only exceptions are EU citizens and citizens of countries where it is impossible to lose your citizenship, like Morocco, Nigeria or Iran, for example."
The Besic transfer was delayed for several weeks and there was speculation that he would need a work permit but didn't currently have enough international appearances. Besic was signed presumably as a German national (not sure where you can check if a player is a non-eu). Besic turns 23 later this year and so should theoretically lose his German citizenship seeing as he has taken his parents Bosnian citizenship. By this point I think he would have enough appearances to then apply and qualify for a work permit as a Bosnian, if this is necessary.
So going from that Gideon might lose his German citizenship at 23. Seeing as he is now living and working in England under his German passport that would be strange if he had to give it up in 5 years time and reapply as a USA citizen under a work permit. He better hope he gets lots of caps.
Yeah, the discussion with Noe Baba was a bit different, the significance with Gideon's case is that his US nationality appears to be backdated with a DeLorean 'back to the future' stroke of ingenuity but we do have to see that FIFA are in agreement with this interpretation. The thing is though, is he recognised as being capped by Germany? u16 games don't count and he only played one u17 friendly, afaia that does not count as playing for Germany.
I think he will be able to declare for the US based on art 5 (the front door), I think he has a permanent USA nationality not based on residency and will still have the option to change until he is capped in a senior competitive game by the USA. Even if he hasn't a permanent USA nationality, I don't think it matters in his case because he hasn't actually played for Germany.
A side note, I came across Frank Zappa's flexible definition of a country, which to AB's comfort, Gibraltar don't even manage to pass.
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline - it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer."
Afaia, Gibraltar don't have their own home brewed beer.
Yeah, I think you're correct. Since he didn't represent Germany in a competitive fixture he won't be using his one-time change of association ticket. But presumably he is still currently registered as a German footballer and will now be registered as a USA footballer. So he should still have this one-time change available if he wants to switch in the future and doesn't represent the USA in an official competitive senior match.
Indeed, it would have been interesting to have seen whether this move would have been permitted if they had been official appearances for Germany seeing as he wasn't a USA citizen at the time. (Article 8, 1. a))
Last edited by Irwin3; 07/01/2015 at 11:09 PM.
That would certainly have been interesting alright.
Would you disagree though with Noe Baba's eligibility to play for us on the basis of his parent(s) having acquired Irish citizenship through residence in Ireland and passing that directly to Baba before he turned 18?
I don't think he would be formally considered a German-registered player for FIFA eligibility purposes. Otherwise, players would have to effect or request switches in spite of not having represented countries competitively, but I'm pretty sure we can assume this is not the case, can't we? If he had played for Germany competitively, he would then be formally aligned, but until then or until he represents one of the countries for whom he's eligible, any ties he has to a particular association (be that through friendly/training participation or whatever) will have no meaning as far as FIFA are concerned in terms of his eligibility or right to switch once. Once he represents a country competitively (even if it's not Germany), he'll still have his right to switch intact, unless, of course, he represents that first country in a competitive senior international. That's my understanding anyway.
I'm pretty certain only competitive under-17, under-19, under-21 and full 'A' international games are significant, as far as the eligibility rules are concerned. There are no competitive fixtures outside of those categories as FIFA don't formally recognise other age-brackets or things like 'B' caps.
Yeah, I'm not quite sure how this works. Is there not something in a footballer's registration details where they have to state their nationality. I'm guessing that 99% of the time this would be taken as their place of birth unless they already had taken on another nationality with intent to represent that country from the beginning.
Well the USMNT have notified FIFA. Presumably Gideon was by default registered as a German footballer since he did appear for them, albeit in non-competitive games.
So my guess would be that the current FIFA process Gideon is involved in is not using his transfer (since he didn't play competitively for Germany), but simply 'updating' his nationality from German to American. This 'updating' process for players who haven't performed in competitive games seems to go a lot faster than for when players have to use their one-time 'transfer' after appearing in competitive games.
Mostly speculation on my part but I think there is some logic to it. The alternative would be that you don't have to make your nationality known to the authorities and simply register for a nation when you intend to become available for competitive fixtures. I'm pretty sure I read before that players had to state their nationality when registering with the footballing authorities.
I'd have thought this was the case as I'm not sure why it would be of any concern or significance to FIFA otherwise, but you may well be right. I can't say for certain. It's just I don't see how such a declaration would have any substantial meaning, so it would seem superfluous to me. But then, why would the US be in touch with FIFA about setting a transfer in motion?
When or why do/would non-international players have to register with the FIFA in the first place? By "non-international" I mean those who would not have been competing in competitive games recognised by FIFA.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 08/01/2015 at 4:12 PM.
Maybe the USMNT are getting in touch with FIFA to make sure he's available for competitive fixtures. Perhaps he'd be free to appear in friendlies right away but you'd have to notify FIFA before the player appears in competitive games.
Well, my theory would be that every player registered in a jurisdiction would have their nationality on their registration paperwork. This would be held by the association they are playing in and would be under the ultimate supranational authority of FIFA. Otherwise, surely every player including eg Irish-born citizens would have to go through a FIFA process of registering. This obviously isn't the case, and I presume that it is because their nationality is already known from their player registration. Only players 'updating' or 'transferring' have to go through a FIFA process.
Those are my thoughts anyway. May be wrong or half-right. Probably spent to much time already thinking about it as I doubt it could be 'settled' without inside info.
Last edited by Irwin3; 08/01/2015 at 4:51 PM.
Just having a look around, but do articles 5-9 in this document, Regulations on the Status and Transfer of Players, relate do the registration of players with associations simply for the purposes of playing for a club or might they also apply to players who might want to participate in, say, an under-age friendly for a particular association?: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affe...transfer_e.pdf
I scanned through them quickly but it seems to me that they relate to players who wish to play for a club only. It does mention about switching association, but I get the impression it's referring to a situation where a player might be transferring between two clubs who operate under different associations.
As the association to whom a player would be aligned for club and international purposes might not always be the same seeing as players will often play for clubs abroad, it is surely fair to assume that players can be registered with FIFA in terms of under which association they play for a club and, separately, for which association they play international football? I think this would suggest that the above document/articles 5-9 relate(s) only to club football.
Going through that it seems clear that player registration details probably contain a host of information on players including their nationalities. When using the 'Transfer Matching System' (TMS), details including both 'Proof of identity and nationality – player' and 'Proof of identity and nationality – player’s parents' are to be included. Presumably when players sign up for a club for the first time they give these details on their registration papers which are held by the association that the club is a member of.
Whether or not the provision of such details to FIFA by associations/clubs/players sees players automatically aligned to or registered with particular associations on the basis of their nationality for the purposes of international football isn't clear though.
A player's registration would be held by the club/the association that the club is a member of. Ultimately every association is within FIFA. It would be updated every time a player is transferred. Likewise, it makes sense to me that it may well need to be updated if and when a player changes their nationality in certain circumstances.
The fact that player's may well have to give their and their parent's nationalities upon registering as a footballer for the first time makes some sense to me. My impression is that when player's move between their birth or their parent's nationalities the 'transfers' go through fairly quickly. On the other hand, when players choose to represent a country through a grandparent or naturalisation, the 'transfer' appears to take a bit longer. My guess is that this would be because this is brand new information that wasn't already on their player registration and their registration has to be fundamentally updated.
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