Eligibility Rules, Okay

[DannyInvincible]

If the IFA went back to FIFA to lobby to have their (FIFA's) previous suggestion to allow Citizens of the Republic Of Ireland to play for Northern Ireland put in place - and were successful - that would bring Article 6 of the FIFA Eligibility Statutes into play.

I'm hearing whispers of such an approach being considered.

Not in favour myself.

I can't imagine that that proposal would actually have led to the invoking of article 6 in the way you suggest it might have had it been passed. FIFA appeared content to legislate for the situation uniquely, unless I'm reading things incorrectly. How else would they have enabled a player born anywhere on the island to play for either association (which is exactly what they proposed)?:

"(...) every player born on the territory of Northern Ireland, holding the UK nationality and being entitled to a passport of the Republic of Ireland or born on the territory of the Republic of Ireland and holding the Irish nationality could either play for the [FAI] or the [IFA], under the condition that all other relevant prerequisites pertaining to player’s eligibility for a specific Association team are fulfilled".

What exactly are they referring to when they mention "all other relevant prerequisites"? They can't be referring to territory of birth (as mentioned in article 6) because they've already outlined that those born in the state of Ireland in possession of Irish nationality (alone?) would be eligible to play for the IFA under the proposal. I mean, why would they propose something if it wasn't going to become a reality due to an inevitable catch (article 6)?

[Not Brazil]

I can't imagine that that proposal would actually have led to the invoking of article 6 in the way you suggest it might have had it been passed.

What exactly are they referring to when they mention "all other relevant prerequisites"? They can't be referring to territory of birth (as mentioned in article 6) because they've already outlined that those born in the state of Ireland in possession of Irish nationality (alone?) would be eligible to play for the IFA under the proposal. I mean, why would they propose something if it wasn't going to become a reality due to an inevitable catch (article 6)?

I sincerely hope the IFA do not pursue this strategy.

However, there appears to be an inconsistency in your arguement here.

When it has been suggested, much earlier in the debate, that the IFA should be seeking a change to the existing Statutes to reflect the unique nature of the dispute (when they wanted them upheld), it was pleaded by the FAI supporters that the rules applicable to everyone else on eligibility should apply to them.

Now, you suggest that FIFA should legislate uniquely on the matter, if Citizens of the Republic of Ireland were deemed eligible to play for Northern Ireland.

Why should the FAI be treated any differently to any other National Association on eligibility?

[DannyInvincible]

However, there appears to be an inconsistency in your arguement here.

When it has been suggested, much earlier in the debate, that the IFA should be seeking a change to the existing Statutes to reflect the unique nature of the dispute (when they wanted them upheld), it was pleaded by the FAI supporters that the rules applicable to everyone else on eligibility should apply to them.

I don't think I ever argued that the IFA should not be allowed to lobby for some rule-change to suit what they might view as a unique situation. In fact, I always said that's what they should have done, as they were more than entitled to do so - like the north African francophone associations lobbied to lift the age-cap of 21 on switching association once - rather than wasting their time going down the ill-advised "FIFA are misinterpreting their own rules" track to CAS.

Now, you suggest that FIFA should legislate uniquely on the matter, if Citizens of the Republic of Ireland were deemed eligible to play for Northern Ireland.

Why should the FAI be treated any differently to any other National Association on eligibility?

I'm not saying they should. I'm content with the situation as it is; Irish nationals born north of the border are entitled to play for the FAI. I was merely saying that it appears FIFA were prepared to legislate uniquely on the matter. Would you disagree? They would had to have done in order to prevent the proposal offered from falling foul of the already-existing article 6 (or article 16, as it was then). Such a proposal wouldn't make logical sense otherwise.

And the proposal wasn't offered to treat the FAI differently; it was proposed to treat the IFA differently, in order to appease them. The solution offered wouldn't have changed anything for the FAI with regard to the eligibility of Irish nationals born north of the border being entitled to declare for them. They had been prior and would still have been after. The proposal, rather, would have created an anomaly or unique situation favouring the IFA whereby the citizens of an external jurisdiction were entitled to represent the IFA on the basis or by virtue of their citizenship of that external jurisdiction. No member of FIFA benefits in such a way under the current rules. The FAI were willing to accept that proposal, also to appease to IFA, but the IFA rejected it.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I think the fly is suggesting (unlike his superior intelligence) that you wouldn't have the time, inclination or intelligence

I think that's what he was really trying to get at

Maybe. Personally think he's taken a bump on the head given the amount of mutual cosying up to his 'new best friend' on here.

With the British Virgin Islands, an overseas territory, in 199 to keep you company?

AB will like that.

See what I mean....

Multiquote it, quick!

Hmm, you're asking way too much.

It was posted in the context of McClean's claims that he was not comfortable in the Northern Ireland set up, and one of the reasons being there "were not too many Catholics" around.

(However many "not too many" is???)

I was making a point that some people might not be too comfortable in the company of McClean, given the type of friend he keeps.

Surely it's obvious;not a lot.

As for not being 'too comfortable' in his company, I'm sure there's many people with 'undesirable' acquaintances.
Some of them even from outside 'the North'. Shock horror!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Ah come on AB. Judging by the amount of posts you have, you're like the rest of us, you have too much time on your hands. Come on, join in with the real fun.

Heh, unlike some on here I say "Why keep a dog and bark yourself"...

[ifk101]

And the proposal wasn't offered to treat the FAI differently; it was proposed to treat the IFA differently, in order to appease them.

A bizarre proposal of the part of FIFA, in the context of the countless years the FAI lobbied FIFA on the issue of the Northern Ireland FA selecting its players. Even more bizarre was the FAI's willingness to agree. :-) But I suppose the FAI is an association that is far more comfortable in its relations with its northeast counterparts these days.

[ArdeeBhoy]

As in, 'spot on' as ever, by the post immediately before mine in reply to NB.

[Not Brazil]

I'm not saying they should. I'm content with the situation as it is; Irish nationals born north of the border are entitled to play for the FAI. I was merely saying that it appears FIFA were prepared to legislate uniquely on the matter. Would you disagree? They would had to have done in order to prevent the proposal offered from falling foul of the already-existing article 6 (or article 16, as it was then). Such a proposal wouldn't make logical sense otherwise.

And the proposal wasn't offered to treat the FAI differently; it was proposed to treat the IFA differently, in order to appease them. The solution offered wouldn't have changed anything for the FAI with regard to the eligibility of Irish nationals born north of the border being entitled to declare for them. They had been prior and would still have been after.

If FIFA were to decree that Citizens of the Irish Republic were eligible, on that Citizenship alone, to represent the IFA, Article 6 would come into play as things stand.

The argument I'm picking up on is if Irish Nationals want absolute equality with British Nationals viz a viz eligibility, Article 6 would be applicable in such a scenario ie. a Nationality enabling a player to represent more than one Association.

Such a move would change everything for the FAI in the context of the current rules.

[DannyInvincible]

If FIFA were to decree that Citizens of the Irish Republic were eligible, on that Citizenship alone, to represent the IFA, Article 6 would come into play as things stand.

Indeed, it would if article 6 was left as it was to apply to the situation, but why would FIFA offer such a proposal if they intended to leave article 6 applicable? That wouldn't make any sense whatsoever. It would render the proposal meaningless.

The argument I'm picking up on is if Irish Nationals want absolute equality with British Nationals viz a viz eligibility, Article 6 would be applicable in such a scenario ie. a Nationality enabling a player to represent more than one Association.

Who wants Irish nationals to have absolute equality with British nationals viz a viz eligibility though? I'm not sure who was/is arguing for that. FIFA merely proposed it to keep the IFA quiet.

[Not Brazil]

Indeed, it would if article 6 was left as it was to apply to the situation, but why would FIFA offer such a proposal if they intended to leave article 6 applicable?

Who wants Irish nationals to have absolute equality with British nationals viz a viz eligibility though? I'm not sure who was/is arguing for that.

Why should FIFA make special rules for the island of Ireland?

Article 6 is what it is - it is designed to cover situations whereby a singular Nationality would entitle a player to represent more than one Association.

If Citizenship of the Republic Of Irelad entitled a player to play for 2 Associations, Article 6 must apply? No?

It appears you don't subscribe to a broad equality agenda, preferring different rules for British & Irish Citizens.

[CraftyToePoke]

If the IFA went back to FIFA to lobby to have their (FIFA's) previous suggestion to allow Citizens of the Republic Of Ireland to play for Northern Ireland put in place - and were successful - that would bring Article 6 of the FIFA Eligibility Statutes into play.

I'm hearing whispers of such an approach being considered.

Not in favour myself.

At what stage is this? Do you see it actually coming to pass?

[DannyInvincible]

Why should FIFA make special rules for the island of Ireland?

I'm not saying they should do anything. They presumably thought doing so would appease the IFA, however.

Article 6 is what it is - it is designed to cover situations whereby a singular Nationality would entitle a player to represent more than one Association.

If Citizenship of the Republic Of Irelad entitled a player to play for 2 Associations, Article 6 must apply? No?

That's correct. But Irish citizenship doesn't entitle a player to play for more than one association. The only circumstance under which it would have would have been had the IFA accepted FIFA's proposal. However, to have any meaning whatsoever, FIFA's proposal would also have logically necessitated extra legislation of some sort to render the Irish situation exempt from the application of article 6. What would have been the logic behind FIFA expressly proposing to allow northern-born Irish nationals to continue playing for the FAI if the actual effect of the proposal would have taken that possibility away from these Irish nationals?

It appears you don't subscribe to a broad equality agenda, preferring different rules for British & Irish Citizens.

The broad equality agenda? That's not something with which I'm familiar and I'm not really sure where you're going with this. In the sense that article 5 applies to Irish citizens and article 6 applies to British citizens, you mean? Does anyone have a problem with that? Irish citizenship is allocated by the Irish state; not the British state (or Stormont government). Article 6 is a necessary exception to the general eligibility principle for the British associations (or any other associations that share a nationality) because they share British citizenship and thus extra criteria are required to decipher eligibility for those associations. That is a problem for the British associations (although I understood this to be broadly accepted, no?) as a result of their exceptional status within FIFA; not the problem of the FAI. I don't see how a player could play for the IFA by virtue of his possession of citizenship of an external jurisdiction, unless FIFA were to enforce such a peculiar anomaly whereby this particular external citizenship would then become one shared by the IFA and the association of the external jurisdiction for no rational reason other than to keep the IFA quiet.

[Not Brazil]

At what stage is this? Do you see it actually coming to pass?

It's at the stage of some "movers and shakers" weighing up the pros and cons, I believe.

I really, really, hope it doesn't come to pass.

[CraftyToePoke]

It's at the stage of some "movers and shakers" weighing up the pros and cons, I believe.

I really, really, hope it doesn't come to pass.

Because it would move things closer to a one team situation ?

[Not Brazil]

In the sense that article 5 applies to Irish citizens and article 6 applies to British citizens, you mean? Does anyone have a problem with that? Irish citizenship is allocated by the Irish state; not the British state (or Stormont government). Article 6 is a necessary exception to the general eligibility principle for the British associations (or any other associations that share a nationality) because they share British citizenship and thus extra criteria are required to decipher eligibility for those associations. That is a problem for the British associations (although I understood this to be broadly accepted, no?) as a result of their exceptional status within FIFA; not the problem of the FAI.

You're waffling a bit Danny.

Read Article 6.

Then consider the impact of an Irish Citizen being eligible to represent more than one Association.

[geysir]

The statutes may not require it, but I don't see how they forbid it either. Associations are permitted to do whatever they like as long as they don't fall foul of the statutes, aren't they?

Maybe so, however it might inspire another FIFA statute, thats the way FIFA responds when an association goes underhand.

I had a search earlier for a comment from FIFA/UEFA on the matter, but it appears it was dealt with internally in France. Whilst morally objectionable, I don't see how it would have fallen foul of the eligibility statutes, however, unless it was to prevent a player switching to the FFF from another association, but my understanding is that that was not the purpose of the supposed proposal.

The purpose of the FFF proposal was to put a racial quota on entrants into their football academy because of the high % of immigrant academy graduates choosing the country of their parents/grandparents. I don't think that proposal sat pretty with FIFA (or any moralist) regardless of constitutional compatibility, but I presume FIFA were content to stay away from the issue as long as the association deals with the matter.

There are undoubtedly practical problems, but, as I've said, that's the business of the IFA. If they want to go ahead with it, be it fruitful for them or reckless, it doesn't bother me. I'm not sure why Ireland fans care so much.

Having an inquisition to determine the extent of future football loyalty in a dual national statelet as a criteria for acceptance, does appear to be too bizarre even for the IFA, but you never know. The IFA and their fans have not let us down for entertainment factor so far.

[Not Brazil]

Because it would move things closer to a one team situation ?

It would certainly raise some eyebrows from afar in that regard.

A one team situation is off the agenda now, given that the current rules allow anyone born in Northern Ireland to have a choice.

That right of choice must be upheld.

[DannyInvincible]

You're waffling a bit Danny.

Read Article 6.

Then consider the impact of an Irish Citizen being eligible to represent more than one Association.

If Irish citizenship became a shared one and the statutes were left as they are at present, I know what impact that would have upon Irish nationals born north of the border; they'd no longer be eligible to play for the FAI. That's clearly not what FIFA were proposing to the FAI and IFA though in 2007 considering they suggested as part of the proposal that "every player born on the territory of Northern Ireland, holding the UK nationality and being entitled to a passport of the Republic of Ireland ... could [continue to] either play for the [FAI] or the [IFA]". They obviously didn't intend article 6 to apply to their proposal.

Maybe so, however it might inspire another FIFA statute, thats the way FIFA responds when an association goes underhand.

It might well, but as no rule would be broken literally, the IFA would first have to breach what FIFA deem to be the purpose of their statutes. Until then, we can only speculate that FIFA would deem such a strategy underhand.

The purpose of the FFF proposal was to put a racial quota on entrants into their football academy because of the high % of immigrant academy graduates choosing the country of their parents/grandparents. I don't think that proposal sat pretty with FIFA (or any moralist) regardless of constitutional compatibility, but I presume FIFA were content to stay away from the issue as long as the association deals with the matter.

Ignoring the morality of it, of what rule would it have fallen foul though?

[Not Brazil]

Having an inquisition to determine the extent of future football loyalty in a dual national statelet as a criteria for acceptance, does appear to be too bizarre even for the IFA, but you never know.

A FIFA member Association having a mature and socially responsible chat with young adults about their future international aspirations is deemed a bridge too far by "geysir".

If wanting to focus development on players who hold ambitions of playing senior international football for a small Association in the face of competition from a larger Association is a crime, I'm guilty as charged.

I will not be making any apology for it though, because that's what we were told to do by the likes of geysir.

[Not Brazil]

If Irish citizenship became a shared one and the statutes were left as they are at present, I know what impact that would have upon Irish nationals born north of the border; they'd no longer be eligible to play for the FAI.

Therein lies the thrust of the rumblings I'm hearing - couched with cries of "equality".