Eligibility Rules, Okay

[Not Brazil]

Having a selection policy would appear to fit in with that thinking. Perhaps they could make it appear rational and fair.
But this is the IFA, they would be 10 times more likely to make it look like they were isolating the inferiors to prevent further contamination of the gene pool.

Having a selection policy primarily focused on the development of players who ultimately aspire to playing senior international football for the IFA is rational and fair.

[Newryrep]

You alluded that a player should know his nationality at the age of 18, as if that should affect a choice between the IFA and the FAI.
Maybe you didn't intend to, but I interpret that as casting aspersions on the sense of national identity of nationalist players who continue to represent the IFA.
I don't know about McGinn or McCourt either, but I assume they consider themselves as Irish as Duffy or McClean.

Thats it , I wouldnt describe them as nationalist players (my opinion only), they may be from a nationalist background but that doesnt make them a nationalist. I have no idea what they view their nationality is,I have no idea what their politics is and I dont much care and am loath to tell people what their nationality is which coincentally is the starting point of this whole debate

As stated in earlier posts I have no affiliation with NI and would never describe myself as Northern Irish (nor British for thst matter)if other do and subscribe to the Northern Irish identity (which appears to be being pushed more and more as opposed to britsh) then that up to them

[DannyInvincible]

Thats it , I wouldnt describe them as nationalist players (my opinion only), they may be from a nationalist background but that doesnt make them a nationalist.

I think this is interesting. What if they ultimately aspired to a united Ireland but, in the meantime, whilst NI continues to exist, pragmatically thought that representing NI might simply benefit their careers rather than amount to any expression of national identity? Sinn Féin recognise the existence of NI and operate within its structures whilst aspiring for a united Ireland through democratic and constitutional means, but would you call them non-nationalists? Is that a fair analogy?

I have no idea what they view their nationality is,I have no idea what their politics is and I dont much care and am loath to tell people what their nationality is which coincentally is the starting point of this whole debate

Would you have an issue with Niall McGinn considering himself Irish solely, albeit whilst representing NI by virtue of the British citizenship automatically conferred upon him?

As stated in earlier posts I have no affiliation with NI and would never describe myself as Northern Irish (nor British for thst matter)if other do and subscribe to the Northern Irish identity (which appears to be being pushed more and more as opposed to britsh) then that up to them

I similarly see myself as neither and, although I'd have been eligible to play for NI, if I was a footballer, I couldn't have envisaged myself playing for them either for the same reason. But then, I'm not a footballer. When an opportunity presents itself to benefit the career in which you are employed that might also involve some form of explicit recognition or representation of NI, it might be more difficult to stick to your principles. I do see where you're coming from though. Just think it makes for some interesting discussion on Irish/nationalist identity.

[Newryrep]

I think this is interesting. What if they ultimately aspired to a united Ireland? Sinn Féin recognise the existence of NI and operate within its structures whilst aspiring for a united Ireland through democratic and constitutional means, but would you call them non-nationalists?

I know where you are going with this, I would call them pragmatic and they are working the system but what other choice have they got ? is international football a choice ?, I also recognise NI exists but doesnt mean it represents me. Do the shinners ever say they are Northern irish ?

Would you have an issue with Niall McGinn considering himself Irish solely, albeit whilst representing NI by virtue of his British citizenship?

I dont see how he can as his Irish nationailty does not entitle him to play for NI as has been confirmed here however I will not dictate to other people their nationality

I similarly see myself as neither and, although I'd have been eligible to play for NI, if I was a footballer, I couldn't have envisaged myself playing for them either for the same reason. But then, I'm not a footballer. When an opportunity presents itself to benefit the career in which you are employed and also involves some form of explicit recognition or representation of NI, it might be more difficult to stick to your principles.

what did Grouch Marx say about principals ? 'If you dont like my principals I can get new ones'

I am still unsure exactly what the concerns would be if a declaration at 18 ( which we all know will never happen BTW) was brought in ?

[DannyInvincible]

I know where you are going with this, I would call them pragmatic and they are working the system but what other choice have they got ? is international football a choice ?, I also recognise NI exists but doesnt mean it represents me. Do the shinners ever say they are Northern irish ?

Sorry, just edited my post to elaborate and hadn't realised you'd already responded. I'd agree they're being pragmatic and working the system, but not sure if that should necessarily be to the detriment of their national identity. I do see where you're coming from - personally, I wouldn't accept a call-up to NI because, for me, international football is about representation of my nationality - yet I don't want to start dictating who is and who isn't whatever either. For others, it might well just be a careerist thing. Football isn't my career, so I've never had to entertain such an option. I dunno if Niall McGinn identifies as Northern Irish either, you see. Maybe he does, but would you question it if he didn't due to the fact he plays football for NI? Would you say he's a unionist then? James McClean played for NI, for example, but he was pretty emphatic in his response to Colin Murray when Murray referred to him as Northern Irish; he made it very clear he didn't identify as such and was simply Irish and Irish alone.

what did Grouch Marx say about principals ? 'If you dont like my principals I can get new ones'

I am still unsure exactly what the concerns would be if a declaration at 18 ( which we all know will never happen BTW) was brought in ?

Ha, indeed. I have no issue with a declaration either. That is the business of the IFA.

[Newryrep]

I dunno if Niall McGinn identifies as Northern Irish either, you see. Maybe he does, but would you question it if he didn't due to the fact he plays football for NI? Would you say he's a unionist then?

I would probably describe him as apolitical if pushed come to shove but it really none of my business

James McClean played for NI, for example, but he was pretty emphatic in his response to Colin Murray when Murray referred to him as Northern Irish; he made it very clear he didn't identify as such and was simply Irish and Irish alone.

On a broader point re IFA my intial hostility has mellowed a bit and i am a bit sympathetic to lads comming through their ranks and then jumping ship (nothwithstanding the argument of exactly how much imput the IFA actually have) For practical reasons some of these lads have came through the IFA ranks as the FAI werent that accessible but what really is deemed accessible ? . Since there will never be FAI structures in NI ,centres in say Dundalk, Monaghan and Letterkenny would be accessible say an hours drive for large swathes of NI. Is an hour accessible ?, I am sure plenty already travel that to FAI centres .

At least a declaration at 18 wouldnt 'waste anymore of the IFA's time'

Anyway its all a mute point as it will never happen

[The Fly]

Anyway its all a mute point as it will never happen

Not silent enough if the previous pages are anything to go by.

[Newryrep]

Not silent enough if the previous pages are anything to go by.

Previous pages ? previous 100 page thread you mean (cant post smileys for some reason ?)

[Olé Olé]

I think, in fairness to someone like McGinn, he's playing with Brentford in order to pay his wages and play football. Basically, the loan served as a furtherance of his career. While he might identify to an infinitely greater degree with Celtic, the opportunity isn't there to play with them.

Parallels between his club and international careers can obviously be drawn. While the topic of international football can be discussed in the context of national identity due to it's fundamental contribution, footballers are earning a career. Assou-Ekotto stated in an interview recently that he doesn't play football for the love of the game and is a careerist. He sees football in the same manner and office worker does, lacing up his boots is to him the same as an office worker switching on their computer in the morning.

I'm not inferring that McGinn holds the same ambivalence towards football in general or international football, but that there exists a strong level of pragmatism in him (or any of the other players in his position) lining out for Northern Ireland, as he would for a club side. From a career perspective, international football carries huge benefits as being one of the elite stages a player can reach and increasing their appeal to manager's or improving there perception thereby. Whether this reflects the situations of some of the players lining out for NI is not completely apparent.

There's also the option for McGinn to sit on his hands during the international breaks and ruefully curse the name of Trap for not selecting him ahead of Hunt, McClean, Duff or McGeady, or participate in more football and test himself at one of the highest levels, whilst also ensuring his name is exposed.

Furthermore, McGinn got his first senior international call-up to NI at the age of 20. At this point perhaps he wasn't even a cast-iron certainty for an Ireland under-21 call-up, had he expressed such an inclination.

McGinn received his first under-23 cap in 2008, in the same year as his first senior call-up. For McCourt, he made his under-21 and seinor debuts in 2002 at the age of 18; a clear instance of latter-day fast-tracking.

I think recent instances of high-profile players such as McClean making the switch will demonstrate the benefits and pitfalls associated with doing so. It should serve to influence young players in a similar position one way or another.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Some slower learners seem to think that what I propose involves changing FIFA rules - it doesn't.

Doubtless a dig at me. However, it was hardly clearly put though DI managed to eventually interpret it.
If it's all so simple why not speak to the IFA and ask them to do it though whether they're going to take much of a lone voice in the wilderness is another matter.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Get over what ? what having an opinion ? How exactly do you get over having an opinion ? dont you know your nationaility at 18 ? are you not mature enough to make a decision then even you can do most things ?. and we are talking about an ireland/NI context here BTW not elsewhere so dont go down that path, 21 is just a number also

Hypothetical IFA edicts aside, as far as we know until tied by a full competitive cap players can still decide their affinity at any age...

What the problem is with that I don't know...

[The Fly]

Doubtless a dig at me. However, it was hardly clearly put though DI managed to eventually interpret it.

It has been clearly stated, and restated, for quite some time.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Heh, so much so that the sharpest poster on this board only spotted it yesterday. So no, as clear as mud...

[The Fly]

Heh, so much so that the sharpest poster on this board only spotted it yesterday.

For arguments sake, if the sharpest poster on the board only grasped it yesterday, then it wouldn't say much for the board.

So no, as clear as mud...

The course of action NB advocates has been clearly stated on numerous occasions over the past months. It has been clear as day.

Most notably, it has been gastric and yourself flapping about in muddy waters. (though with the former it has been mostly unintentional)

[gastric]

For arguments sake, if the sharpest poster on the board only grasped it yesterday, then it wouldn't say much for the board.

The course of action NB advocates has been clearly stated on numerous occasions over the past months. It has been clear as day.

Most notably, it has been gastric and yourself flapping about in muddy waters. (though with the former it has been mostly unintentional)

And it's good to have you back on here Ardeebhoy!

[ArdeeBhoy]

For arguments sake, if the sharpest poster on the board only grasped it yesterday, then it wouldn't say much for the board.

Clearly you've had a humour bypass. The facts are further up the page should you choose to read them....

And even if NB's pronouncement was as clear you claim;why is he wasting his time on here with it...
Or does he think the IFA bother with this thread?!

[The Fly]

Clearly you've had a humour bypass. The facts are further up the page should you choose to read them....

The only fact relevant to the discussion is that this proposal has been clearly stated all along, and never involved the FAI, FIFA, CAS or any other sporting body apart from the IFA.

And even if NB's pronouncement was as clear you claim;why is he wasting his time on here with it...
Or does he think the IFA bother with this thread?!

It's a thread that pertains to the issue of player eligibility, which affects the team he supports. So, his interest is obvious and it's a free board after all.

The IFA could have done worse that visit here whilst this debate was at its peak. I think we lost out to OWC however.....oh well!

[gastric]

Fly, You alluded to one reason why I do come on this thread and that is to communicate with NB who is from a community that I find I have not much in common with. At times, I am intrigued by his views, other times infuriated. However, he is determined and does give us all an insight into the mindset of a NI supporter from a Unionist background. As you implied, this is the beauty of such threads.
What ultimately intrigues me is that sport for me is about trying to maximise your potential and to achieve success. The abuse that occurs on forums like OWC seem to mask the failings of NI football to come to terms with the modern political situation, as in the GFA Agreement, and there sems no obvious plan to create a successful future for the sport in NI. I am not proposing a United Irish team nor am I a rabid republican, but the seemingly lack of leadership and direction in NI football seems to perpetuate the frustrations expressed on OWC.
Trying to comprehend this is what draws me back time and time again!

[DannyInvincible]

Fly, You alluded to one reason why I do come on this thread and that is to communicate with NB who is from a community that I find I have not much in common with. At times, I am intrigued by his views, other times infuriated. However, he is determined and does give us all an insight into the mindset of a NI supporter from a Unionist background. As you implied, this is the beauty of such threads.

I have to say, I've learned a huge deal about unionist identity (and even opened my mind to the notion of a plural Irish identity) through my interactions with the likes of NB and GR. What infuriates you though?

What ultimately intrigues me is that sport for me is about trying to maximise your potential and to achieve success.

It'd be nothing without identity and representation though. That's the human or emotional element that draws people in. If sight of that is lost, it loses its meaning for people, and it doesn't matter how much success an entity enjoys if it doesn't mean anything to anyone.

The abuse that occurs on forums like OWC seem to mask the failings of NI football to come to terms with the modern political situation, as in the GFA Agreement, and there sems no obvious plan to create a successful future for the sport in NI.

I think the IFA's work in adapting to the post-GFA era is commendable and well-documented. If they purport to be truly cross-community though, there are residing issues, but that's their own business. I think the 'FFA' programme is an attempt to create a successful future for the sport in NI. They're not shunning those from nationalist or Catholic backgrounds.

I am not proposing a United Irish team nor am I a rabid republican, but the seemingly lack of leadership and direction in NI football seems to perpetuate the frustrations expressed on OWC.

What do you propose the IFA do exactly?

Just to be clear, I've never had any problem with NB's proposal where the IFA would seek a declaration from a player in order to ascertain his allegiance at a certain age. It's strictly an IFA issue and that's how I've always understood it to be. Latter talk of an inter-associational agreement puzzled me because I understood his proposal not to involve such. An inter-associational agreement to which players would not be party would fall foul of FIFA's statutes, as CAS outlined in paragraph 90 of the Kearns case. Players have a right to switch association if they wish and associations are not permitted to impinge upon that through some sort of agreement.

[The Fly]

Fly, You alluded to one reason why I do come on this thread and that is to communicate with NB who is from a community that I find I have not much in common with. At times, I am intrigued by his views, other times infuriated. However, he is determined and does give us all an insight into the mindset of a NI supporter from a Unionist background. As you implied, this is the beauty of such threads.

Given the context, I have always found said poster's views to be refreshingly rational, clearly stated and succinctly expressed. He has remained consistent throughout and simply wishes the IFA to be proactive regarding the player eligibility issue. Sadly however, I doubt that he provides an insight into the mindset of your typical NI fan. Perhaps NB can gives us an update on that?

What is it that you find infuriating?

What ultimately intrigues me is that sport for me is about trying to maximise your potential and to achieve success. The abuse that occurs on forums like OWC seem to mask the failings of NI football to come to terms with the modern political situation, as in the GFA Agreement, and there sems no obvious plan to create a successful future for the sport in NI. I am not proposing a United Irish team nor am I a rabid republican, but the seemingly lack of leadership and direction in NI football seems to perpetuate the frustrations expressed on OWC.
Trying to comprehend this is what draws me back time and time again!

Without meaning to sound patronising, I just think that you have been somewhat naive regarding the North.

The atmosphere surrounding the NI side has changed a lot in recent times and the IFA are to be commended for much of that. Whilst they haven't exactly provided sterling leadership over this player eligibility issue, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. I've always had the slight suspicion that their masochistic forays to have the 'rules clarified' before FIFA and the CAS may have been an effort to have the rules clarified for the benefit of their own support whilst playing to the gallery in petitioning both bodies. Although, perhaps it is possible for an organisation to be so repeatedly idiotic, and such machiavellian self-immolation is indeed a bridge too far?

As you have alluded to, the endgame for the NI side is to have both a new anthem and flag in the hope of fostering some sort of neutral nascent national identity both for the players and support, thus maximising the playing pool and the possibility of qualifying for a major tournament again. This may happen in time, but, frankly, it doesn't solve this issue for them. At least not in the short to medium term. We're all aware of that infamous match at Windsor Park, the Neil Lennon situation and so on. The cumulative effect of these, together with the troubles, was the haemorrhaging of any substantial nationalist support or goodwill towards the NI side.

Whilst changing the paraphernalia surrounding the NI team may increase nationalist goodwill, support was lost some time ago. Getting it back involves generations of endeavour. For the here and now, the IFA needs to make the best of a bad situation. I believe that NB's proposal offers that.