Eligibility Rules, Okay

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Did either of the above make arrogant, disparaging, comments about the IFA when thery initially chose to play for the South?

According to Bruce, when faced with a choice of playing for either Northern Ireland or the South, there "wasn't really a choice to be made" when he chose the South.

Now that that his International career has flat lined with the South, he prostitutes himself to the IFA.

He can do one.

I cringed a few times.

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Whilst I was unaware that Lee Camp made a "come and get me" plea to the IFA, it is irrelevent in the context of discussion on Bruce.

Perhaps then your use of the term ‘prostituting’ was misguided in your description of Bruce when you consider that Lee Camp seems to have followed a similar route, with his ‘come and get me’ call to the IFA.

Strange also that for someone so forthright in your belief that Irish players born in the north should make their international choice at an early age, you seem to have no issues cheering on Lee Camp, Who despite having represented England up to u21 level, and who five months before his ‘come and get me’ call to the IFA, said in an interview "Absolutely it is something I would aim for in the future, i would love to play for England,"

Maybe if there was any consistency to your argument you would tell Lee Camp to ‘do one’, as you would Bruce.

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Did either of the above make arrogant, disparaging, comments about the IFA when thery initially chose to play for the South?

According to Bruce, when faced with a choice of playing for either Northern Ireland or the South, there "wasn't really a choice to be made" when he chose the South.

Now that that his International career has flat lined with the South, he prostitutes himself to the IFA.

He can do one.

So, since you didn't answer the question, I'll ask again. Does the same apply to Michael O'Connor and Tony Kane?

Originally Posted by tricky_colour

what sort of apology would he issue? "Sorry for being the best player in the NI underage squad"???

Sorry for misleading the IFA into thinking he was interested in representing NI at senior level and thereby getting an opportunity to participate in their underage squads when he actually intended to switch to the FAI as soon as the opportunity arose and was only using his IFA appearances as a stepping stone to further his career.

Originally Posted by osarusan

Sorry for misleading the IFA into thinking he was interested in representing NI at senior level and thereby getting an opportunity to participate in their underage squads when he actually intended to switch to the FAI as soon as the opportunity arose and was only using his IFA appearances as a stepping stone to further his career.

At the time though, he might well have been interested in representing NI at senior level (for careerist reasons, if you will), so I'm not sure it is fair to say he was misleading them all along. Circumstances change and it's easy to be moralistic about it in hindsight, especially when we're not personally involved ourselves. In fact, he accepted a call-up to their senior squad before pulling out upon realising he might have a chance of playing for the FAI.

Plus, we're aware that the IFA have been happy to continue selecting players they know have ambitions of switching to the FAI anyway.

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

so I'm not sure it is fair to say he was misleading them all along.

I was careful not to say he had been misleading them from the start, but it if we are to believe his own comments*, then at some point he made the decision to stay with the IFA, where he felt unwanted and unrepresented, for his own careerist reasons, while keeping his desire to switch private.

I do think it's easy to be moralistic about that. I don't agree at all with your 'who are we to judge' angle.

*I think it is also possible that we shouldn't believe much of what he says at all. I think it's quite plausible that having received the moronic abuse he has for declaring for the FAI, he is responding by saying things designed to pi$$ those morons as much as possible.

Originally Posted by osarusan

I was careful not to say he had been misleading them from the start, but it if we are to believe his own comments*, then at some point he made the decision to stay with the IFA, where he felt unwanted and unrepresented, for his own careerist reasons, while keeping his desire to switch private.

I do think it's easy to be moralistic about that. I don't agree at all with your 'who are we to judge' angle.

Moralising does comes easy to moralisers

*I think it is also possible that we shouldn't believe much of what he says at all. I think it's quite plausible that having received the moronic abuse he has for declaring for the FAI, he is responding by saying things designed to pi$$ those morons as much as possible

Now you are making cynical assumptions about McClean's designations.
McClean spoke in general (for all catholics) about his experiences but really he should just speak for himself.
Some nationalists are quite comfortable in the IFA set up and even if some of that group are not comfortable, it's not that big an issue for them.

Originally Posted by co. down green

Strange also that for someone so forthright in your belief that Irish players born in the north should make their international choice at an early age, you seem to have no issues cheering on Lee Camp, Who despite having represented England up to u21 level, and who five months before his ‘come and get me’ call to the IFA, said in an interview "Absolutely it is something I would aim for in the future, i would love to play for England,"

Maybe if there was any consistency to your argument you would tell Lee Camp to ‘do one’, as you would Bruce.

You're normally quite sharp CDG, but not on this occassion.

You actually make my point for me.

Lee Camp is a proud Englishman - from the beginning, he chased his dream to play
senior International football for England. He did not play for England harbouring boyhood dreams/ambitions of playing for Northern Ireland.

When he made a call that he was unlikely to fulfill his boyhood dream, he chose to pursue a senior International career with Northern Ireland.

Northern Irish born players with boyhood dreams of playing for the South, should take
a leaf out of Lee Camp's book - chase their dream at the earliest opportunity with the FAI. If it doesn't work out, they are eligible to switch to the IFA.

If, at that point, they are good enough and prepared to give 100% to the Northern Ireland cause, as per Lee Camp, that's fine.

Originally Posted by geysir

McClean spoke in general (for all catholics) about his experiences but really he should just speak for himself.
Some nationalists are quite comfortable in the IFA set up and even if some of that group are not comfortable, it's not that big an issue for them.

McClean, therefore, dragged religion into the mix.

Was he speaking as a Catholic, or as a Republican?

They are not two of the same.

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

So, since you didn't answer the question, I'll ask again. Does the same apply to Michael O'Connor and Tony Kane?

In future, I will not be attending a Northern Ireland match which features a player who has played for Northern Ireland at Under 19 or above, subsequently switched to the South and then switched back - I'm not 100% clear in what circumstances this could happen, and have written to FIFA's legal department seeking clarification.

However, if a player from Northern Ireland starts his International career at Under 19 with the FAI, and subsequently switches to the IFA, that's fine by me.

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

In future, I will not be attending a Northern Ireland match which features a player who has played for Northern Ireland at Under 19 or above, subsequently switched to the South and then switched back - I'm not 100% clear in what circumstances this could happen, and have written to FIFA's legal department seeking clarification.

However, if a player from Northern Ireland starts his International career at Under 19 with the FAI, and subsequently switches to the IFA, that's fine by me.

one last thing, does this apply only to players who switch to the Republic, or to any country (Wales, England, USA, etc)

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

one last thing, does this apply only to players who switch to the Republic, or to any country (Wales, England, USA, etc)

It applies to any Northern Irish born player who represents Northern Ireland at Under19 and above, subsequently switches to another Association and then switches back - if that is possible!

In practice, I don't think we'll see too many players switching to Wales, England, USA etc.

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

In future, I will not be attending a Northern Ireland match which features a player who has played for Northern Ireland at Under 19 or above, subsequently switched to the South and then switched back - I'm not 100% clear in what circumstances this could happen, and have written to FIFA's legal department seeking clarification.

However, if a player from Northern Ireland starts his International career at Under 19 with the FAI, and subsequently switches to the IFA, that's fine by me.

I often wondered what FIFA did half the time, if its to answer these sorta questions, i'd imagine they are kept quite busy.

How does the average NI supporter feel about McGinn for instance? Especially that he has come out and said he would rather play for FAIreland

Originally Posted by osarusan

I was careful not to say he had been misleading them from the start, but it if we are to believe his own comments*, then at some point he made the decision to stay with the IFA, where he felt unwanted and unrepresented, for his own careerist reasons, while keeping his desire to switch private.

Which comment would indicate that he continued playing for NI whilst desiring to switch? Possibly he first desired to switch upon his call-up into the NI squad for the game against the Faroe Islands forcing him to have a more thorough think about it.

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

McClean, therefore, dragged religion into the mix.

Was he speaking as a Catholic, or as a Republican?

They are not two of the same.

My guess is he was speaking as a republican but referenced his religion, which was indeed naive and careless but also something that academics and sociologists do from time to time when commenting on or generalising in relation to NI. Consequently, I think it's ridiculous to see so many faux-sensitive NI fans make such a big deal of it. I think they're seeking ways to be offended and attempting to paint McClean negatively. For McClean, the word "Catholic" most likely represents his general cultural/national Irish republican identity rather than his theological beliefs.

Here's a good example... When I fill in the fairness and equality form attached to a NI job form, out of the three choices of "Catholic community", "Protestant community" or "Other", I tick the box to indicate I'm from the Catholic community. I don't consider myself a Catholic. Indeed, I was baptised one and my parents practice their faith, but I don't believe in any god at present, nor do I necessarily wish to identify as a Catholic. The term has broader connotations in NI, however. I tick that box because the form is really asking me about my broader national identity even though not explicitly mentioning it. Although seemingly more appropriate, I think ticking "Other" would give the incorrect impression.

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

For McClean, the word "Catholic" most likely represents his general cultural/national Irish republican identity rather than his theological beliefs.

I know several Catholics who would be offended by such a gross mis-representation by McClean and others.

Originally Posted by paul_oshea

How does the average NI supporter feel about McGinn for instance? Especially that he has come out and said he would rather play for FAIreland

McGinn is playing for NI for careerist reasons. His preference would have been to play for us. He remains open about his support for us. NI fans have really taken to him because he gives his all when representing them.

I'm baffled as to how this thread remains at the top of the this forum.

In case anyone forgot, we're playing at the Euros in three weeks. Surely debating clearly defined and easily understandable rules with disgruntled NI fans is for the off-season.

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I know several Catholics who would be offended by such a gross mis-representation by McClean and others.

I can see why, which is why I say it was naive and careless of him. I don't like having to tick that box on the job form either. I think it's similarly crass and insulting.

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I know several Catholics who would be offended by such a gross mis-representation by McClean and others.

To be honest I'd suggest those you know should get a thicker skin. 'Gross mis-representation' like that happens all the time with terms on all sides, hardly seems a big deal particularly considering McClean isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the box. Personally I can't stand sensitivity around words and labels in NI, does my head in. Just my opinion.

Originally Posted by French Toasht

I'm baffled as to how this thread remains at the top of the this forum.

In case anyone forgot, we're playing at the Euros in three weeks. Surely debating clearly defined and easily understandable rules with disgruntled NI fans is for the off-season.

I'm baffled why you clicked on it. Plenty of Euros threads going great guns. There just happens to be a few eligibility die-hards, doesn't take much to avoid.