QuoteGive them a chance to establish themselves at the very least!! It's something that's only been passed relatively recently.
And not all their 'better' players would want to play anyway. Well, at least for now.
This issue was discussed on Newstalk's Saturday sports show with Ger Gilroy, in light of McClean's comments during the week. Malachy Clerkin was actually quite critical of the whole thing. The essence of his argument being that there are not many successful Irish internationals that have come from the North, citing Gibson as the exception. He also seemed to argue that the FAI are denying these players that aren't successful the opportunity to a long career with NI. That's my impression of what he was saying, I'm open to correction if anyone else heard it.
Few holes worth picking in his argument. Especially in relation to Gibson being the only successful player. But, I don't think there are (as yet) any North-born players out in the international wilderness as a result of their decision. Wilson is still in the mix with Ireland and O'Kane and O'Connor managed to switch back to the Northern Ireland side. There are plenty of young players with bright Ireland careers ahead of them i.e. McClean and hopefully Paul George and Daniel Kearns.
Give them a chance to establish themselves at the very least!! It's something that's only been passed relatively recently.
And not all their 'better' players would want to play anyway. Well, at least for now.
A "few holes"? The whole argument is one big hole.Originally Posted by Olé Olé
As I said in the James McClean thread, the gambit of Gibson being the only success can aptly be described as pure balls. Indeed, it should only be described thus.
I bought the Star for the piece on Ger Crossley on Saturday and he spoke enthusiastically about his involvement with successful underage teams under Brian Kerr. Now, Crossley managed to be in the senior squad once, but he didn't carve out a "long and distinguished career". That does not make him a failure.
Similarly, of the several others who have recently taken the decision to play for their country, we have 20 year olds Shane Duffy and Daniel Kearns, who are regular under 21 players and young Paul George, who is a star of the under 19s. If one's definition of success requires 100 caps, then that is, at best flawed, and at worst, plain stupid.
There are others who switched during their youth international careers who still wouldn't have "long and distinguished" Northern Ireland careers, by virtue of the simple fact that their club careers never really took off in Britain. Derry lads Ruairi Harkin, Barry Molloy and Darren McCauley, for example, would probably still not be anywhere near Northern Ireland squads had they not made the decision to switch.
As BonnieShels alluded to earlier in the Nations Cup thread in his admiration of the IFA, I should probably thank these ignoramuses for giving me something else to be utterly sickened with.
End Apartheid Now! One Team in Ireland!
As far as I know Gibson is the only Northern Irish-born player who's actually cap-tied to us.
This "denying them a career" stuff is nonsense. They're not being hoodwinked. Most players will never play a single game of international football for anyone.
It's "admiration" more like!
You are 100% correct in everything you say here.
The one thing that is exemplified by the Malachy Clerkin comments during that OTB segment was how out of touch a lot of "southerners" (sic) are when it comes to Irish nationality with regards to our "northern" (sic) brethren.
The fact that the FAI have approached this in a remarkably professional and calculated way in that they refuse to comment on individual cases, gives more airtime and media coverage to the incredible and confused comments from OWC, the IFA, the BBC/BT and the AONISC etc.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
http://media.newstalk.ie/podcast/27976/
Thats a link to the actual panel discussion from Saturday. They discuss a number of topics. McClean comes up on 35mins and moves onto the broader issue and the discussion lasts 10 minutes until the end of the piece.
Shelbourne coach Alan Matthews asks "Who has come through that has earned 40 caps, or 25 caps?" Darron Gibson is briefly discussed by the panel. On second listen, I wasn't quite as accurate with the denying them a career idea but it's almost inferred.
Clerkin's argues that Irish supporters first point of contact with these 16, 17 and 18 year-olds and states that we are "aggressively" going after these players. He also reckons that it is a point of friction between the IFA and FAI which will do nobody any good.
It's surprising that Daithi O'Regan is a hurling man from Offaly whose comments on this multi-faceted footballing matter seem to be the most informed, thought-out and maybe even most logical. Quite disappointed with Clerkin and his arguments, given his position and, as he relates himself, his geographical background 12 miles from the border.
Last edited by Olé Olé; 09/01/2012 at 12:38 AM.
How presumptious of me.
End Apartheid Now! One Team in Ireland!
How many senior internationals have we had from Leitrim? Not many. (Any?) Doesn't mean we should exclude Irish footballers from Leitrim from our thoughts or deny them the opportunity to be called up if willing and good enough.
These players who switch aren't primarily chasing after "success" either. That's not the motive. They're not mercenaries. They're opting to declare for the country which represents their national/cultural identity. James McClean's comments show that his ambition is to enter Trap's consideration and to give himself as good a chance as possible of representing his country. If he fails in this, he will not regret it because he didn't carve out a "successful" international career nor because he would have won many more caps with NI. He'll be happy with one hundred caps, one cap or for just having tried. I haven't had a listen yet, nor am I all that familiar with Clerkin, but it sounds like he's just being intentionally antagonistic from what you say. A player's personal judgment on the success of his own international career is simply none of Clerkin's business and a pointless argument in which to engage anyway given it's something entirely subjective concerning only the player involved.
Not sure how it's possible to deny someone something when the informed choice accorded to them is entirely their own. Players who switch are sentient beings, believe it or not; they understand what they're doing and the possibility of experiencing no international career at all. McClean's comments demonstrate that.He also seemed to argue that the FAI are denying these players that aren't successful the opportunity to a long career with NI.
Isn't Shane Duffy tied to us by virtue of having played in competitive fixtures for both associations at under-age level and having already made the solitary switch permitted to him? Pretty sure the same applies to Daniel Kearns.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 09/01/2012 at 3:05 AM.
Ah, I didn't think of that. I suppose they must be - that's what you'd expect if the rules were to be interpreted exactly as written, but FIFA are leaner on some aspects and as far as I know it hasn't been challenged. And sure don't the IFA know the intentions behind FIFA's rules better than FIFA themselves?
Gibson is relatively close to that with 17. Besides, what's the point? Is Gibson only deemed "successful" if he achieves another eight caps?
Irish supporters' first point of contact with many players is when they declare for us publicly or appear in our squads. Paul Green was 26 or something when I first encountered him. What does it matter when our first point of contact with a player happens to be?Clerkin's argues that Irish supporters first point of contact with these 16, 17 and 18 year-olds...
It was also suggested that "we're overdoing it". The FAI aren't actually engaged in whatever it is Clerkin thinks "it" to be. The FAI are simply enabling players to realise their wish. Nobody is aggressively chasing after players and bullying them into submission....states that we are "aggressively" going after these players. He also reckons that it is a point of friction between the IFA and FAI which will do nobody any good.
Contrary to the fears expressed, FAI-IFA relations are certainly no worse today than they have been in the past. The IFA were perfectly happy with circumstances (identical to what they are today) in 1999 - as expressed clearly and publicly by Jim Boyce to Bernard O'Byrne and the media at the time - and, post-Kearns case, have seemed willing to accept the right of players to switch association in recognition that the responsibility is their own if they wish to convince players to opt for them instead of the FAI. The recent comments of Gerry Armstrong and Michael O'Neill indicate this. In spite of the debate remaining a major issue for NI fans and some in the media, the two associations have been able to engage in otherwise perfectly mature, cordial and professional relations as demonstrated by their joint organising of the Carling Nations Cup with two other local associations recently. Even if this matter was cause for frosty relations, I think that would be indicative of IFA intransigence and pettiness; a petty unwillingness to accept socio-political reality/the national identity of nearly half the population in their jurisdiction and the governing regulations in place. It would be an issue for FIFA to resolve via the amendment of their regulations rather than an issue for the FAI to resolve. I don't see why the IFA being "12 miles up the road" or the fact "we all have to live on this wee island together" should necessarily mean the FAI owe them some extra special consideration over that which might be afforded to other associations like the SFA or FA.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 09/01/2012 at 5:00 AM.
Can you ring in to Newstalk Danny and set them straight ("aggressively")?
I think Danny(Mutt) and Charlie(Jeff) should arrange to phone in around the same time.
A mixture of the former's Tolstoyan verbosity and the latter's Ladybird brevity should do the trick.
We could also get ArdeeBhoy to phone in as well, and he can just go "...er..." between each contribution.
Last edited by The Fly; 09/01/2012 at 6:22 AM.
I'm sure his European Championship winning medal won't end up on eBay.
I think an e-mail to Clerkin himself would be more fitting. I can't understand how a broadsheet sports journalist entered a panel discussion on this issue without being as well-informed as he should be.
Has anybody else listened to the discussion?
Oi. Leave me out of that!
Though when I've been starstruck before talking to real famous people, do default to that mode.
Anyway Clerkin sounds like an eejit and the worst sort of 'Free State' apologist....
http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/01/05/...ing-both-ways/
Been up and running on Slugger for a few days.
The moderation of Slugger really does seem to help the coherence of the discussion of this issue.
However, I still accept that this thread is the be all and end all of the discussion.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Clerkin's tweetable if anyone can limit their objections to 140 characters: https://twitter.com/#!/MalachyClerkin
Urgh I like Slugger, and Mick Fealty, but they're as clueless on this issue as just about everybody else (cept us know-it-all's).
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
He's also on Facebook. Was going to, but then didn't bother my ass....
I guess that rules out Danny.
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