Eligibility Rules, Okay

[osarusan]

[*]It's too simple to say that it's a waste of time and resources developing so-called defectors. The relationship between player and association is not a one-way relationship whereby only the player is a beneficiary. Players selected for international "duty" return the "favour" to both the association that has selected them and the fans who pay to watch them by providing their service or playing a role within whatever particular squad they are chosen. That is something of substance returned. Not that there is a strict duty anyway, but international squads are selected on a game-to-game basis; thus, even if selection did give rise to obligations, any obligation would cease once the player had performed his "duty" within that particular squad which then ceases to be. Take Shane Duffy, for example; he was called into IFA squads and offered what you might call "carrot caps" even after openly expressing his strong desire to switch association. Even with the knowledge of his intentions in mind, the IFA still deemed him the best or most suitable available candidate to them for a number of their squads, including a senior friendly. Otherwise they wouldn't have selected him. Duffy offered his service and provided them with an option. Duffy did not compel the IFA to select him nor were the IFA under any obligation to choose him. If NI fans want to moan about Shane Duffy taking the place of some other "poor bugger", blame the IFA for selecting whoever they deemed to be the best player available for the place in whatever squads he was chosen. It also must be remembered that Shane Duffy gave back quite a bit to the squads in which he was chosen. Likewise, there is more to an association than merely its senior men's international team.

No disagreement with any of this in gerneral terms, but Shane Duffy's case is that he had a life-long dream to play for Ireland. If he had made clear to the IFA earlier in his career that while he was happy to receive underage training and would give his all for their underage teams, he fully intended to declare for Ireland, rather than NI, at senior level...would it have made a difference to the extent in which he was involved in the NI underage setup?

[Newryrep]

Fair enough, although the declaration need only apply when an adult player (ie over 18) actually plays nternationally.

You do realise that declaration at a certain age may not be a runner either with FIFA; it may be that the next change to eligibility rules makes it even easier to change countries...

Personally GR I have no objection to a declaration at 18 as it is widely recognised on these islands as of an adult age but it has a snowballs chance in hell wrt FIFA who if anything increased the age limit recently( and the IFA dragging D Kearns all the way to CAS has pretty much ruled out an FAI deal). Having said that its still a better chance than compensation which when I first heard I checked the calander to see if it was April 1st. It really is pie in the sky stuff

[DannyInvincible]

No disagreement with any of this in gerneral terms, but Shane Duffy's case is that he had a life-long dream to play for Ireland. If he had made clear to the IFA earlier in his career that while he was happy to receive underage training and would give his all for their underage teams, he fully intended to declare for Ireland, rather than NI, at senior level...would it have made a difference to the extent in which he was involved in the NI underage setup?

Only the IFA can answer that, but I wouldn't assume anything considering they did continue calling him up in the knowledge his interest lay elsewhere. I also recall reading a post on IrishLeagueSupporters regarding the eligibility issue a month or two back (might have been by a Cliftonville supporter, although couldn't be certain and can't put my finger on it right now); he maintained that he was aware of a northern-born player who had been approached by an IFA youth coach who sought to call him into a NI youth side. The player informed the coach that he had no interest in representing NI as he was Irish. Rather than leave him be, the coach is alleged to have responded by telling the lad not to worry about that and give the NI youth set-up a go anyway. If he then wished to declare for the FAI at a later date, "so be it", seemed to be the message. I think I have the basic details of that correct there, but maybe Mr. Parker, NB, GR or anyone else on there can recall the post I'm talking about and confirm?

[ifk101]

"Can I ask what you all think of this.

Underage player A called on 3 occasions by IFA manager of that team and asked to play for NI. Player A response on the 3 occasions was no, he was declaring for ROI. On a fourth Occasion Player A was asked again to his face and told by the National manager that it would put him in the shop window for the ROI anyway if he played for them. This player has now played for NI and openly states it is still his intention to declare for the ROI at the first available opportunity.

I heard the face to face conversation with my own ears btw and for the record it wasnt a cliftonville player involved."

In the Shane Ferguson thread on ILS.

[osarusan]

Thanks both, makes for interesting reading. It does seem to throw a spanner in the 'compensation' argument if the IFA continue to offer training to players even though (or because?) they've made clear an intention to declare for the FAI.

[geysir]

I don't know what the IFA may be planning in future in regards to training camps, but the value to Shane Duffy of participating in the NI youth squads while a player with Foyle and Everton, would be minimal if any at all.

[DannyInvincible]

I don't know what the IFA may be planning in future in regards to training camps, but the value to Shane Duffy of participating in the NI youth squads while a player with Foyle and Everton, would be minimal if any at all.

A hindrance surely?

[geysir]

The best we can say is that the IFA practice games weren't a life and death issue for Shane.

[BonnieShels]

Wonderful. Cutting. Well played sir.

[ArdeeBhoy]

It's hardly bullying to lobby NI under-age internationals to remain available for selection for the senior team. Of course some will never have played for NI at any level, perhaps through their own choice. Fine, their decision. Bye



I doubt this will happen. First, no-one in our U-19 and U-21 teams stands out as good enough; second, it's pointless making the lielihood of defeat even higher- Worthington and Beaglehole's tactics are discredited; third, it doesn't guarantee the players will continue to turn out for NI. International football isn't a press gang.

They are and they aren't, respectively.

Fair enough, although the declaration need only apply when an adult player (ie over 18) actually plays nternationally.

You do realise that declaration at a certain age may not be a runner either with FIFA; it may be that the next change to eligibility rules makes it even easier to change countries...

All very, er, worthy. But does any of this actually mean anything??

[Predator]

I'm just listening to McAllister here. That man's inane ramblings on this matter are astonishing.

[The Fly]

http://macdaraferris.wordpress.com/2012/01/05/northern-exposure-to-the-league-of-ireland/


Northern Exposure to the League of Ireland

On his appointment as the new Northern Ireland manager, Michael O’Neill has made it clear this week that he will be looking to maximise the use of the small player pool available to him. O’Neill will attempt to stop the trickle of players born in the North, some of whom have played under-age football for Northern Ireland, switching their allegiances to Giovanni Trapattoni’s Republic of Ireland team. O’Neill has spoken about tempting former Northern Ireland under 21 international James McClean back to the North after last year he pulled out of a Northern Ireland senior squad saying he wished to play for the Republic of Ireland team.

The issue of players who were born in Northern Ireland declaring themselves available for the Republic is a thorny one. The Irish Football Association (IFA) went all the way to the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne to try and prevent FIFA’s ruling on players being born in the North playing for the Republic. It is particularly galling for the IFA to see players who are capped at underage level for them moving to play for the senior Republic of Ireland team. This issue has elements of politics and probably religion wrapped up in it with the singing of God Save the Queen as the anthem played at Windsor Park and the Good Friday Agreement being parts of the debate. A Great Britain and Northern Ireland team will take part in the football tournament at the London 2012 Olympics but the football associations of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have not backed the team for fear of jeopardising their separate teams in UEFA and FIFA competitions.

Having been appointed Northern Ireland manager after successfully winning back-to-back League of Ireland titles with Shamrock Rovers, Michael O’Neill will look to cast his net to include player’s currently plying their trade in the League of Ireland. O’Neill was critical of his predecessor Nigel Worthington for not calling up League of Ireland players to the North’s squad for last summer’s Carling Nations Cup competition held in Dublin. Back then, Alan Mannus was O’Neill’s goalkeeper at Shamrock Rovers. Mannus’ superb form for Rovers in 2011 earned up a move to SPL side St. Johnstone in August but it couldn’t get him a spot in the Northern Ireland squad when he was at Rovers. “I would be disappointed that playing at Shamrock Rovers diminished Alan Mannus’ opportunity to play internationally,” said O’Neill back in July. “I did find it strange that Northern Ireland had six players in the Carling Nations Cup with Irish League experience and then there was the likes of Alan Mannus and James McClean of Derry that have both been in the Northern Ireland system but hadn’t been picked.”

However, as soon as Mannus had left Shamrock Rovers, even though he didn’t play a game for St. Johnstone, he was straight in the Northern Ireland squad. Mannus himself told of how Worthington gave him the impression that he needed to be playing away from the League of Ireland before he would be getting a call up for the North. “When the Northern Ireland manager (Nigel Worthington) spoke to me, he said in his words the fact that I’m not in England or Scotland doesn’t help me,” recalled Mannus last season. “I don’t think they pay too much attention to the League of Ireland. I know that he really wants players to be in England or Scotland. It is a case of even if it is Scottish First Division or League Two in England, they will still choose them ahead of lads in the League of Ireland and the Irish League”.

Shamrock Rovers player Chris Turner may be hoping that his former club boss will be in touch with him about a call up to the senior squad. Turner captained the Northern Ireland u21 team but has yet to get a senior cap. At Rovers this year, the 24 year old won the League of Ireland, the Setanta Sports All-Ireland Cup competition and qualified for the Europa League group stages. Turner’s crucial goal in Rovers’ opening game in Europe ensured the win over Estonian Champions Flora Tallinn setting Rovers on their way in Europe where he played 10 European games. His former team-mate certainly thinks he could do a job for the North. “I don’t necessarily think that the players in the squad are better than those playing in the League of Ireland like Chris Turner,” said Alan Mannus previously. “I’ve seen people come in from the Irish League in the same position in midfield and they weren’t any better than the likes of Chris Turner.”

Turner himself has spoken about the situation of League of Ireland players and the Northern Ireland international squad. “I obviously played the whole way up through from schoolboys up to the u21s but I’ve never been close to getting into the full national team,” said Turner last season of his time with the international set up in Northern Ireland. “I don’t think the league here gets enough recognition. I don’t even know if anybody comes down to watch any of the games. There are a number of players who could play for Northern Ireland like myself, Alan Mannus, Ruaidhri Higgins and a few of the Derry lads last year. There are players in this league more than capable of playing international football.” You would imagine that Michael O’Neill, who will be based in Northern Ireland, will be keeping a greater eye on talent available to him in both the League of Ireland and Irish League than his predecessor.

Returning to the recent move of James McClean from Derry City to Sunderland, it is a case in point about the calibre of players in the League of Ireland. McClean made his debut for the Black Cats in their 1-0 win over Manchester City on New Year’s Day and followed it up by scoring two days later in a 4-1 win over Wigan. Subsequently, there have been calls for McClean to be rushed into the Republic of Ireland squad, probably more so now following O’Neill’s words this week about looking to change McClean’s on playing for the North. Turner spoke last season about this strange situation of players suddenly becoming good enough to play international football just because they make a short flight or ferry ride across the Irish Sea. “You just have to look at some of the players who were playing here in the League of Ireland,” said Turner. “Once they get a move, they get called up. They don’t become a better player overnight. They were always a good player whenever they played in this league. Just because you get a move over the water to England or Scotland it doesn’t necessarily make you a better player.”

It will be interesting to see how far O’Neill will go to encourage players to play for Northern Ireland. He spoke this week about asking players who had quit international football to return. Will he look to bring ‘granny rule’ players in who are plying their trade in the SPL or English football? Or maybe bring in a naturalised Northern Ireland man? Possibly Shamrock Rovers star striker Gary Twigg may be eligible and O’Neill knows all about the striker who has scored 66 goals for Rovers in the last three seasons! Whatever he does, O’Neill knows he has a tough task ahead of him as his side faces into qualification for the World Cup in Brazil in 2014 in a group including Russia and Portugal. Ensuring he has a squad with as high a number of quality players will certainly help him as he cuts his teeth in international football.

[DannyInvincible]

'GSTQ' is a red herring - not that the IFA are going to change their anthem anyway - and the GFA has absolutely nothing to do with player eligbility as far as matters of regulation and substance are concerned. In fairness, the primary motive of the piece appears to be related to the likes of Chris Turner and other potential NI internationals playing in the League of Ireland rather than the eligibility issue in spite of it setting out on that course.

[Olé Olé]

McCourt had the same issue when he was playing with Derry and Rovers, but began gathering more caps when he moved to Celtic.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...ls/7495409.stm

[Charlie Darwin]

I think Turner has a great chance of making it into the Northern Ireland team. Unfortunately, that probably means Scottish teams will come looking for him.

[DannyInvincible]

Came across a few interesting bits and pieces over on OWC...

The first relates to a case taken to CAS by the Namibian football association against the CAF and their Burkinabé counterparts over their selection of Herve Zengue, a Cameroon-born player who attained Burkinabé citizenship via marriage and was then selected to represent Burkina Faso in a game versus Namibia.

'Cas has heard Namibia's case against Caf over Zengue': http://www.kochhars.com/sport2/hi/football/16397537.stm

'Namibia's Muinjo happy with Cas hearing' (contains audio clip): http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/16447209.stm

The Namibia FA's (NFA) case against the Confederation of African Football (Caf) has been heard at the Court of Arbitration for Sport in Lausanne.

The NFA does not expect a decision on Friday in the case over Herve Zengue's eligibilty to play for Burkina Faso.

Caf has twice rejected Namibia's claims that Cameroon-born Zengue was ineligible to play against them in two Africa Cup of Nations qualifiers.

Namibia want to replace Burkina Faso at the finals that begin on 21 January.

Defender Zengue was born in Cameroon and has a Burkina Faso passport after marrying a Burkinabe.

The Namibians claim that under Fifa regulations this does not entitle him to play for the Stallions.

Fifa's statutes say you must have a parent or grandparent from the country you wish to represent or have lived there for at least five years.

The BBC still trotting out that line then and not just in relation to eligibility in the Irish context. I bet they're going baloney over on Foot.bf tonight!

I've not heard of Zengue before, but this might be an interesting one to keep track of as it may compel a greater clarification by CAF/CAS on which article ought apply in this case and why. Seemingly, this involves a player acquiring a new nationality but if Zengue is ruled eligible, it'll be for satisfying article 5's "nationality not dependent on residence" clause because there is no way he satisfies one of the "geographical" criteria in article 7. Maybe we'll benefit from a greater explanation as to what article 5 encompasses exactly. Whether nationality conferred by marriage to a citizen will satisfy the criterion remains to be seen. If he fails to satisfy that regulation, presumably the court will go into detail as to why not.

Naturally, it won't have any implications for the issue here because the nationality of Daniel Kearns - an Irish citizen by birthright - clearly does satisfy that criterion, in spite of what some ignoramuses may think on OWC; "Why is this going to CAS surely the Kearns case sets the precedent, as highly unlikely as it is if they rule this guy ineligible then the IFA need to get all over this!"

I also see my post mentioning what I'd read on ILS made it on to OWC, so the obsession is obviously mutual. Hi, Jack!

There doesn't appear to be any sign of it being taken seriously, however...

Given the source I would take it with a bigger pinch of salt than the Carrickfergus salt mine could provide, but in the slim chance it is true the IFA really need to catch themselves on and let these wee scrotes rot.

A post from Foot.er calling on Mr Cliftonville to confirm a rumour? As sources go, they don't come much more reliable......

Although I reckon its reposting alone is a revealing enough insight into fears over its potential veracity and the seriousness with which it is taken at heart.

Its not a bad plan if you think you are dealing with reasonable people with perhaps a semblance of loyalty or even just the basis of good manners, you give them a chance when no one else seems to care, decent honest people are more than likely to reciprocate that loyalty and stay with you. However where the IFA went wrong is not realising they were dealing with bigoted wee kunts.

If he twisted that any further, he'd have broken the internet.

Of course, this issue being a real "political hot potato", Mark Devenport (BBC NI's political editor) has gotten right on it in his latest weekly blog entry: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16431539

Michael O'Neill did refer on Good Morning Ulster to the "one-sided" FIFA rule which enables the Republic to poach players from Northern Ireland, but does not work vice versa. Perhaps the IFA should revisit this matter.

How did Johnny Gorman and Ryan Brobbel end up in the IFA's ranks then? FIFA's rules are universal in application and allow the FAI to call up Irish nationals only; not NI internationals, NI footballers, players born in NI or whatever twisted specification someone wants to put on certain individuals.

It is not just the FAI which can exploit technicalities. Northern Ireland's veteran goalkeeper, Maik Taylor, has a German mother and English father, but - having been born on a British base in Germany - he was entitled to play for any of the UK nations.

"Exploiting technicalities"?! We're talking about the bloody general principal of FIFA's universal regulations governing player eligibility here, Jesus!

The solution he offers is one the IFA refused to entertain back in 2007. Would they entertain it given current circumstances?:

Back in November 2007, the FAI accepted a FIFA proposal that the rule should work both ways, but the IFA rejected the suggestion. The IFA's logic was that there would not be a queue of, say, Cork or Dublin born players eager to play for Northern Ireland, so the idea was not worth pursuing.

However, given that the Court for Arbitration in Sport dismissed the IFA's complaint against the FAI and shows no sign of shifting its ground, maybe making the rule work both ways is better than nothing.

It would at least increase the potential gene pool for future Northern Ireland squads, in as much as it would apply not just to Cork and Dublin youngsters, but also to players with Cork or Dublin grannies.

Better a late contribution than never though, I guess...

[ArdeeBhoy]

And the irony is, DI, if it wasn't for your post, certainly the IFA would be as clueless as ever.


As my (former E.German) mate said, "Why don't they just amalgamate??"
Even by the standards of our clueless DUP-types this is starting to look more sensible....

[geysir]

The Namibian case to CAF about the eligibility of Zengue to play for Burkina Fasa was thrown out because of a technicality.
Zengue was not cleared by FIFA to play for Burkina Fasa when they played Namibia.
After CAF threw out the Namibia appeal, they took the case to CAS and they look to have a cast iron case. Their case is against CAF, not against FIFA.

AFAIA, CAS will not rule on the eligibility of Zengue to play for BF, instead they will rule on whether he was eligible to play at the time.
FIFA have not yet cleared Zengue to play for BF and I presume they have asked more questions or for more documentation.

[DannyInvincible]

The Namibian case to CAF about the eligibility of Zengue to play for Burkina Fasa was thrown out because of a technicality.
Zengue was not cleared by FIFA to play for Burkina Fasa when they played Namibia.
After CAF threw out the Namibia appeal, they took the case to CAS and they look to have a cast iron case. Their case is against CAF, not against FIFA.

AFAIA, CAS will not rule on the eligibility of Zengue to play for BF, instead they will rule on whether he was eligible to play at the time.
FIFA have not yet cleared Zengue to play for BF and I presume they have asked more questions or for more documentation.

Ah, I see. So instead of investigating whether he satisfied/satisfies the eligibility criteria, they will simply base their verdict on whether FIFA had given Zengue clearance at the time or not?

[geysir]

Well I don't know exactly, but I doubt that CAS would dare tell FIFA, that such and such a player is eligible or not, before FIFA have come to a decision on his eligibility.

It appears Namibia's objection to CAF was based on the questionable eligibility of Zengue. But actually the core of the matter is that FIFA have not cleared Zenque to declare for Burkina Faso.
Namibia made the wrong appeal as it is FIFA who decide on eligibility, not CAF.
Bizarrely CAF have taken no action against Burkino Faso but just said that Namibia only questioned his FIFA eligibility not the fact that he was not cleared to play for BF

But all this should not matter in the long run to Namibia's cause.
as
Nations Cup rules
Article 36.12 states that a team which allows a 'non-qualified or a suspended player to take part in group matches shall lose the match by penalty (3-0), even in the absence of protests/reservations'.