QuoteThe silence has indeed been deafening.Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Interesting take on things from David Healy and the News Letter in light of the news on Alex Bruce in recent days: http://www.newsletter.co.uk/sport/fo..._row_1_2782677
DAVID Healy yesterday hit out in the ongoing eligibility row involving players switching from Northern Ireland to the Republic.
The heated debate is raging on as the Irish FA continues to lose promising young talent to its FAI counterpart.
Some names to have switched allegiances in the past include Darron Gibson, Marc Wilson and Shane Duffy.
Northern Ireland manager Nigel Worthington has already voiced his stern opposition at what many believe has been the cherry-picking of local talent.
And now the country’s record goal scorer has added his weight behind the argument.
“I believe a lot of players who have opted for the Republic have left the IFA high and dry. There is no other way of looking at it,” Healy (above) said.
“I feel strongly about the situation. Players are coming through the ranks with the IFA and then they suddenly declare for another football nation when it suits.
“There are other players who are happy to feature in friendlies and then walk away to play for someone else.
“They shouldn’t just come in, play through the underage levels, or in one or two senior friendlies and then decide that’s it.
“They shouldn’t use it as a convenient means of improving their CV at that particular time.
“I know people have different identities and so on in Northern Ireland. That has always been the way.
“But the Irish FA has done so much in recent years to improve the atmosphere at Windsor Park. It deserves credit.”
The silence has indeed been deafening.
And then there's this from UTV the other day: http://www.u.tv/sport/NI-boss-holds-...1-18e7869fb570
Now that one is quite something.Northern Ireland boss Nigel Worthington has held talks with Alex Bruce that could see the Republic of Ireland defender switch his international allegiance.
The 1998 Good Friday Agreement, coupled with a FIFA ruling allowing players to change nationality once before playing a competitive senior international if they were born "on the territory of the relevant association", allows players to move from one Ireland side to the other.
Anyway, I've just sent various e-mails off to the Derry Journal, the Belfast Telegraph, the News Letter, the Irish News, UTV, the BBC and the Guardian. Can anyone suggest any other outlets worth contacting?
Sports News Ireland have also e-mailed expressing an interest and there may be something on the horizon with When Saturday Comes as well.
The Blizzard, The Daily Record, The Daily Telegraph, Off the Ball and RTÉ.
Chris Hughtons mother was Irish. It's an interesting question though, I think that citizenship has to be in place before the child is born but I'm not 100% on that.
Out of interest, did Chris Hughton qualify via an Irish parent or an Irish grand-parent, because I know his son Cian is eligible to play for us? I think Chris might have had an Irish parent, mind, but maybe someone could clear that up. Once again, though, the above is just my own speculation and guesswork based on how I'd interpret the text in light of the reality that Barton and Bruce do qualify for us. In spite of what some might have said, I'm certainly no authority.
Seriously Danny, excellent work. The attitude in ignoring it on OWC drives me mad to be honest.
I could seriously see the likes of When Saturday Comes running with a story on it, seems right up their street....
WSC ran with the linked article...
http://www.craveonline.com/sports/ar...fa-rule-change
Surely Danny could get a full right to reply on WSC?
Danny,
Brilliant blog. I printed it off and read it on a train journey I was taking yesterday. Shortened the journey considerably. As regards it not attracting much debate on OWC, I would say that is more a vindication of your blog, completely blowing their uninformed arguments out of the water. Unfortunately it clashed with that Prodestan guys article (doesn't he sound like one of those religous fanatics with a microphone on Grafton Street) and they will happily take objection to the gaping holes in his argument.
I would see your article as a reference point. It covers the issue of eligibility so thoroughly and precisely that, any time a poster on OWC comes out with blatant ignorance of the actual reality surrounding the eligibility issue, a copy and paste job will nip that one in the bud.
As regards you sending it out to the media, I think it has already been suggested that you get in touch with the Off the Ball lads. It really is quiet season now in football (so much so that they have shortened the show by an hour), that they would be crying out for a story like this. I used to be sports editor of a newspaper at uni and would regularly get in touch with them for research and always found them unbelievably amenable and obliging.
If you're on twitter, send @kenearlys a message Danny. He's mentioned us many a time on the show, and regularly replies on twitter.
Have e-mailed Off the Ball. Not on Twitter myself unfortunately, but if you wanted to contact Ken Early and just mention it that'd be really helpful. Have also e-mailed the Blizzard, RTÉ and MNS, who cover the international game from time to time and ran a feature on the issue around the time of the NI game.
EastTerracer posted that one up in the Shane Ferguson thread in March and it got the run-through back then.
At the risk of doing a disservice to someone in their 50th hour of typing a factual, point by point rebuttal...I'd call that a very fair assumption.
As Drumcondra69 stated Chris's mother was/is irish. The granny rule per say is more so because of Irish citizenship rules less so FIFA requirements.That's something I've been trying to get my own head around and was mulling over the various possibilities a few pages back, but I can't say anything for certain. It's the reason I didn't go into article 17 - or what tends to be known as the "granny rule" - in my piece as I would only have been basing my arguments on conjecture. Likewise, I avoided the questions surrounding the eligibility of the likes of Adam Barton and Alex Bruce, because their circumstances are slightly different to those born in the north and I'd only be speculating as to which article they qualify under. I've sent an e-mail to the FAI's legal head though on these issues, so I'm hopeful I'll get some sort of response to clear this up.
What I know is that hypothetical player B would be entitled to Irish citizenship so long as it had been passed onto him via descent, or registration with the Foreign Births Register. The parent (player A) or grand-parent through whom it would be passed would also have had to have been an Irish citizen at the time of this player B's birth. Whether that would make him eligible to play for Ireland or not is another matter.
There's more information on the citizenship side of matters here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en...r_descent.html
What I've been wondering is whether player B would be deemed by FIFA to be a permanent Irish national or whether he'd be deemed to be acquiring a new nationality and, therefore, be obliged satisfy the criteria laid out in article 17. If he'd have to satisfy article 17, I don't see how he'd qualify as neither he, a parent or a grand-parent would have been born in the territory of the FAI. If however, his citizenship was construed to be formal and legal recognition of his permanent Irish nationality, he might not be deemed to be acquiring a new nationality after all and might actually satisfy the general principle laid out in article 15, thereby making him eligible to play for us.
The reason I think article 15 may apply in such instances is because, if interpreted literally, article 17 would surely disqualify the likes of Barton and Bruce. I acknowledge they would be categorised as player As under your example, but I'll explain why they're relevant to working out the article under which Irish nationals via descent might qualify. Defining NI as the territory of the FAI would appear to be a stretch of meaning and would certainly be a contentious interpretation, no matter what our own political views on the matter would be. Indeed, if article 17 did disqualify the likes of Barton or Bruce, but they are still perfectly eligible to play for us, then it would have to be article 15 under which they qualify. Essentially, what I'm saying is that maybe article 17 isn't the "granny rule"; maybe article 15 has that effect and so even those who are Irish via descent beyond an Irish grand-parent may well be perfectly eligible to play for us just so long as they are permanent Irish nationals, independent of any residence in Ireland.
Out of interest, did Chris Hughton qualify via an Irish parent or an Irish grand-parent, because I know his son Cian is eligible to play for us? I think Chris might have had an Irish parent, mind, but maybe someone could clear that up. Once again, though, the above is just my own speculation and guesswork based on how I'd interpret the text in light of the reality that Barton and Bruce do qualify for us. In spite of what some might have said, I'm certainly no authority.
As you have stated previously citizenship is the primary factor for FIFA so in theory I think player B would be eligible as long as he was also granted citizenship subject to the usual rules. The rules have been in place for a considerable time and were not drawn up with international football in mind so its not as if we are doing a Qatar
I have posted in on the TAMB, I would try Slugger O Toole as they often cover the eligibility issue as wrong as everybody else
Delete the comment with his link
Tony Fearon is an Irish 'disgusted of Tunbridge Wells' he may mean well but frequently comes across that 'its all the brits fault' and has a tendancy to over egg the pudding
Sent him a twitter message for you Danny!
I'm loving how this has taken off in the way it has.
As regards that comment from King David... Jesus wept.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
He replied:
"yeah i read that last week, we will mention it if NI issue comes up again"
http://twitter.com/#!/kenearlys/status/82118724181688321
great blog DI. Very comprehensive.
With regards to forwarding this, i would send to all local media and not stop there - forward it to all international football magazines where this would, i would say, be snapped up as a "current interest" story, especialy in the off season of most major leagues.. Do it!
I like high energy football. A little bit rock and roll. Many finishes instead of waiting for the perfect one.
I see you went back to posting over there, "like a fly around sh*te", apparently. It was relatively courteous welcome I thought, especially compared to the welcome sports minister Carál Ní Chuilín looks set to receive from some of the Windsor faithful when she visits the ground.The silence has indeed been deafening.
Just saw it here.
Fair enough, it's a long article, but I'm not sure those guys have even read the full thing as they're making obsolete and factually incorrect points that would have been cleared up had they decided to read the whole thing before having their say on it. One blames the players concerned for causing ill-feeling and division, whilst similarly blaming McCarthy and McGeady for doing the same in Scotland. That's a hard argument to stomach and those within which such decisions have provoked ill-feeling would be best questioning their own levels of tolerance and outlooks on life rather than frowning upon the legitimate and respectable expression of others' identity or heritage.
FIFA has compiled a set of rules that apply universally. I'm not aware of any situation worldwide where they trust member associations to make their own rules unhindered. What a load of absolute baloney.In Scotland, cases like McCarthy and McGeady have just caused unnecessary bad feeling and division. In places like ex Yugoslavia there have been similar cases. FIFA are forced to make eligibility rules but cases like ROI/NI and eligibility of players with British passports in general are too complicated for FIFa and depend on FAs -that`s where FAs have to be trusted to make rules that will help society and not just their football teams.
Another, presumably unaware of article 16, with which a significant part of my piece deals, appears to believe that England, for example, could, at whim, tear up a "gentleman's agreement" it has with the other associations to prevent them from selecting the likes of Gareth Bale or Darren Fletcher.
Article 16.2 allows for those associations sharing a common nationality to "make an agreement under which item (d) of par. 1 of this article [- He has lived continuously on the territory of the relevant Association for at least two years -] is deleted completely or amended to specify a longer time limit", but "[s]uch agreements shall be lodged with and approved by the Executive Committee". A British association can't even go alone and tear up item (d), never mind the whole article.Interesting indeed, but it screams out loud and clear "We dont give a f'ck".
If England (please dont get upset English TAMBers, only a hypothetical example), were to tear up the so called gentlemans agreement in place between the "home nations" over selection of players, they could in theory have got the likes of Darren Fletcher & Gareth Bale playing for them - if they were so inclinded - after all they all hold a British passport and England (and Scotland/Wales/NI) can select players holding such passports.
Neither of the four nations of course would do such a thing as chaos would ensue and it would ultimately damage all four nations to varying degrees.
This is no different to what the FAI are doing. You can shout FIFA laws and judgements all you like, but the fact remains that the FAI can choose to cause untold damage to NI football if they continue to pilfer talented players from the Nationlist community. There has to be a level of integrity and that can be shown by agreeing that any player capped upto a certain age level by either nation is off limits to the other.
Anyway, the FAI aren't "pilfering talent", for a multitude of reasons I attempted to outline in the piece, nor is what they're doing unique in international football. The IFA do the same thing themselves. They've been chasing after Connor Wickham who has been set out for a bright future with England and are more than willing to select players who've played in the youth set-ups of other associations, even the FAI's. In fact, the recent Alex Bruce story goes to show they're more than happy to select even players who've played at senior level for other associations. They can do it all they want; it's just a bit rich and hypocritical to play the victim card. It also must be understood that FIFA's rules leave the FAI in no position to infringe upon the rights of northern-born Irish nationals even if they did want to initiate some form of agreement with the IFA. CAS stated that such an agreement to which a player wouldn't have been party would prevent players from exercising their rights when commenting on the alleged "1950 FIFA ruling"/"gentleman's agreement":
"In any event, the alleged tacit agreement may not be used to defeat the claim of Mr Kearns, who was of course not a party to any such agreement and who, in any event, is entitled to exercise his rights as provided under Article 15 and 18 of the 2009 Application Regulations."
It's not a case of "not giving a f*ck" or "smug bully smirking" either. The IFA will continue to exist unimpeded. The FAI is bullying nobody; free choice reigns, like everywhere else. I don't wish harm on the IFA, nor I'm sure do the FAI, and I happen to think that the right of all Irish nationals to declare for Ireland is something that should be upheld and defended wholeheartedly when challenged.
Sweet Caral Ni, good times never seemed so good?
But an easy one for your opponents to put. A lot of NI fans and some Scots have decided they want a simplistic argument to rant around, not a reasoned discussion. Things have changed a bit if you're getting annoyed by the whole thing, rather than seeing it as just an extended gag at their expense.That's a hard argument to stomach
Players' rights don't extend to being guaranteed international football, surely? If at some point the FAI said 'right, we won't pick any more players who've turned out for NI's adult teams' it wouldn't infringe anyone's right to anything.It also must be understood that FIFA's rules leave the FAI in no position to infringe upon the rights of northern-born Irish nationals even if they did want to initiate some form of agreement with the IFA. CAS stated that such an agreement to which a player wouldn't have been party would prevent players from exercising their rights when commenting on the alleged "1950 FIFA ruling"/"gentleman's agreement"
No, that's correct. Obviously, there is no obligation placed upon the FAI to select the players. The FAI would be infringing on players' rights, however, if they refused to allow such otherwise perfectly eligible players to declare for them. At least, that appears to be the court's take on it.
A very pertinent move Newryrep, given we're about to engage them in a tug of war for Shane Ferguson.
Last edited by Sullivinho; 19/06/2011 at 4:40 PM.
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