One poster on OWC raises this point:
To my knowledge, CAS considered unquoted excerpts from the FAI's webpage submitted by Patrick Nelson and, presumably, wasn't convinced. There's no mention of their further analysis in the Kearns judgment. Also, if FIFA had issued letters/dictats effective upon the FAI along with those they issued to the IFA, surely there'd be evidence of them. The letters that were produced by the various parties for the court's consideration clearly had no implications for the eligibility of northern-borns to play for Ireland.Very interesting article but the bit about no evidence regarding gentlemans agreement in the fifties, i read on FAI history section of there website about this and they stated that FIFA did instruct both associations to pick players only from there on boundries.On looking at this again it has been removed from there history section,i printed it out at the time and most have a look for it.If these players want to play for ROI then good luck to them but please stop takeing the place of someone who wants to play for Northern Ireland.
The FAI submitted the following to CAS:Originally Posted by CAS
The exchange of letters quoted by CAS between 1946 and 1951 appears to back this up along with the fact that FIFA refer to it as "the alleged '1950 FIFA Ruling'".Up until 1950, both associations claimed to govern all football in Ireland and to be entitled to choose players from throughout the island, without any reference to their geographical location. In the beginning of the 1950’s, the two associations accepted that they could no longer regard all players on the island as being under their jurisdiction and agreed that the IFA was the governing body of football in Northern Ireland and the FAI in the Republic of Ireland. In any event, there was no discussion about the status of Irish citizens living in Northern Ireland and FAI has never accepted that Irish citizens could not be selected for its representative teams, whether they were living in Northern Ireland or elsewhere.
However, I've had a look through the FAI's history section using the Wayback Machine and just picked out a random archived version of the history page from June 2009. Sure enough, the history section once stated:
That has since been edited over with a broader and more in-depth look at the FAI's history. It now features the following:1950 was also the year that the problem of players playing for both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland was finally solved, with FIFA directing both Associations to only pick players from within their own boundaries. FIFA were also to clear up another matter in 1953 when they ruled that the FAI's team would be known as the Republic of Ireland with the IFA's side being called Northern Ireland. Up to that point, both Associations referred to their teams as 'Ireland.'
Of course, it's always possible that someone writing the FAI's former history section made an error in interpretation or some sort of assumption. A website history section isn't a document with any binding legal effect, after all.The decade of the 1950s marked the resolution of the thorny issue of dual qualification of players born on the island of Ireland and also the intervention of FIFA to apply an official designation to the two associations governing football on the island.
The Irish Football Association in Belfast continued to select players from the south for their international teams in the years after the War, a policy that was not shared by the football authorities in Dublin with just one exception.
The Football Association in Dublin selected four Northern Ireland players in a squad that travelled to play Portugal and Spain in the Summer of 1946 in Ireland's first two international matches after the War.
The reasons why [the IFA] departed from their stated policy of confining selection to those players born in the Republic have never been satisfactorily explained but the licence to look beyond the political boundary separating the North from the Republic for team selections was revoked in 1950.
In any case, as I've oft-repeated, FIFA's current rules would have superseded any such agreement anyway.
On the point that those players who switch after having represented the IFA are taking up the space of another more willing candidate, I feel it's worth pointing out that the IFA selects the best team available and willing to play for it at any one point in time on merit. Those it selects "repay" the IFA with their immediate performances on the pitch and if the IFA doubts their commitment or utility, they are under no compulsion to select them. Lots of players around the world just miss out on selection. Sure, have sympathy, but don't take it out on other players who are deemed to be deserving of being there in that space by the association.
Edit: Just to add to that last point. In spite of being fully aware of Shane Duffy's interests in representing us, the IFA continued to select him at the expense of others. Ultimately, it's the IFA's call.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 16/06/2011 at 9:38 PM.
So what could the OWC massif possibly say then in relation to that?
It seems that they are wangling away from questions posed constantly to refute their claims of wrong doing against the IFA and the northern team by the FAI. It seems that the new angle is to be against players that are "wasting IFA resources" by lining out for the under-age squads.
What will next week's POV be?
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
This from an OWC admin regarding this article from the new NI Sports Minister offering to visit Windsor Park
Admnistrator!Let the tramp trot along to a GAA handball match, where her terrorist murdering lot are not only welcomed, but f**king glorified and remembered as heroes for killing and raping.
Presumably he'd see no place in Windsor Park for the likes of First Shankill Northern Ireland Supporters Club spokesman, Winkie Rea, then... People around the globe who have killed others and lost their lives in the pursuance of some particular cause have always been glorified. It's nothing unique to a bunch of GAA clubs scattered around the north who happen to be named after United Irishmen and IRA volunteers. Of course, clubs named after saints are much more common. People wear poppies on remembrance day for the same reason. However, I must ask, what rapists are glorified by the GAA?
It's something in which I maybe could have gone into a bit more detail in the piece itself but I've posted my post above in the comments section beneath the piece on my own blog area just to cover that argument so maybe one of them will come across it and see it's a referral to a post made on OWC.
An e-mailer has suggested I set up a Wiki article and include the piece I've written in it, but I'm not sure how that would work. I did a lot of work on getting the Derry City FC article up to featured article status a few years ago so am more than aware of their strict policies on what should be included and what should be deleted if they don't deem it notable enough.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 17/06/2011 at 1:25 AM.
A wikipedia page wouldn't be helpful I don't think. You can only source from traditional media and we already know that's where the confusion stems from.
Indeed, ha. That's another issue. Plus, you could have all sorts vandalising it.
I've my theories on one or 2 in particular who make me sick to my stomach.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Not our old 'friend' from here, surely??
The history section on the FAI website isn't sourced. It seems to be a copy and paste of various bits and bobs with personal interpretation added. For example the previous extract you were able to track down mentions FIFA "directing" the IFA and FAI in 1950 on the matter of eligibility based on place of birth. We know from the Daniel Kearns ruling that this is incorrect. The "directing" is a 1951 letter from FIFA to the IFA.
There are certain parties that remain strongly of the belief that a gentleman's agreement exists/ existed. However there isn't any strong or reliable evidence to support its existence to the extent that it can only be concluded that a misunderstanding has taken place along the way. The idea of a gentleman's agreement is most likely linked to when FIFA ruled on the naming of the two teams in the early/ mid 1950's. At that time there existed a pool of players that were playing for both the FAI and IFA (this despite the IFA acting in contrary to their famed "1950 ruling"). The decision on which team that specific pool of players should represent (as they couldn't continue to represent both teams) is perhaps the supposed gentleman's agreement.
Danny - query from another site. the son of someone who qualified for us under the grannyrule would they be eligible.
My take would be
Player A qualifys to play for us via his grandmother being Irish and acquires (not just entitled to )Irish citizenship/passport. He is therefore a dual national
Player A has a son who becomes a good footballer. Player B.
Player B had no tangible connection to ireland apart from his great grandmother, However his father Player A has Irish citizenship/passport so he would also be entitled to one ? therefore he would be eligible. ?
Not sure about this, I would imagine Player A would have to take up the option of irish citizenship/passport ie be proactive as opposed to just being entitled to it. The FIFA rule is grandparent. It would be strange if the son of an irish international could nt play for his fathers team
player B would definitely be entitled to Irish citizenship as long as player A had registered himself as Irish before his son was born. Good question on whether or not B would be eligible
That's something I've been trying to get my own head around and was mulling over the various possibilities a few pages back, but I can't say anything for certain. It's the reason I didn't go into article 17 - or what tends to be known as the "granny rule" - in my piece as I would only have been basing my arguments on conjecture. Likewise, I avoided the questions surrounding the eligibility of the likes of Adam Barton and Alex Bruce, because their circumstances are slightly different to those born in the north and I'd only be speculating as to which article they qualify under. I've sent an e-mail to the FAI's legal head though on these issues, so I'm hopeful I'll get some sort of response to clear this up.
What I know is that hypothetical player B would be entitled to Irish citizenship so long as it had been passed onto him via descent, or registration with the Foreign Births Register. The parent (player A) or grand-parent through whom it would be passed would also have had to have been an Irish citizen at the time of this player B's birth. Whether that would make him eligible to play for Ireland or not is another matter.
There's more information on the citizenship side of matters here: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en...r_descent.html
What I've been wondering is whether player B would be deemed by FIFA to be a permanent Irish national or whether he'd be deemed to be acquiring a new nationality and, therefore, be obliged satisfy the criteria laid out in article 17. If he'd have to satisfy article 17, I don't see how he'd qualify as neither he, a parent or a grand-parent would have been born in the territory of the FAI. If however, his citizenship was construed to be formal and legal recognition of his permanent Irish nationality, he might not be deemed to be acquiring a new nationality after all and might actually satisfy the general principle laid out in article 15, thereby making him eligible to play for us.If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born outside Ireland and if any of your grandparents was born in Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen. However before you can claim Irish citizenship, you must have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register, which is maintained by the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade - see 'How to apply' below. If you live abroad, you must apply to have your birth registered through your nearest Irish embassy or consular office. If you are entitled to register, your Irish citizenship is effective from the date of registration - not from the date when you were born.
Citizenship through descent from Irish grandparents
If one of your grandparents is an Irish citizen but none of your parents was born in Ireland, you may become an Irish citizen. You will need to have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register.
If you are entitled to register, your Irish citizenship is effective from the date of registration. The Irish citizenship of successive generations may be maintained in this way by each generation ensuring their registration in the Foreign Births Register before the birth of the next generation.
Since 1 July 1986, a person registered in the Foreign Births Entry Book after 1986 is deemed to be an Irish citizen only from the date of his/her entry in the Register and not from the date of birth. This means that children born to that person before his/her date of entry in the Register are not entitled to citizenship.
People registered before July 1986 are deemed Irish citizens either from the date the original Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act came into force, that is, 17 July 1956, or their date of birth, whichever is later. Only children born after 17 July 1956 can claim citizenship in such cases.
Other Irish ancestors
Unless at least one parent or grandparent was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, you cannot claim Irish citizenship on the basis of extended previous ancestry (that is, ancestors other than your parents or grandparents). In addition, you cannot claim Irish citizenship on the basis that relation such as a cousin, aunt or uncle was an Irish citizen if none of your parents or grandparents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth.
The following table may help to explain the situation:
Code:If you are: Then you are: A Born in the island of Ireland on or before 31 December 2004 Entitled to Irish citizenship or you are an Irish citizen B Born on the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 Entitled to Irish citizenship if your parents are Irish. Entitled to Irish citizenship, if your parents are foreign nationals legally resident in the island of Ireland for 3 out of 4 years immediately prior to your birth. C Child of A, born outside the island of Ireland An Irish citizen D Child of C and a grandchild of A, born outside the island of Ireland Entitled to Irish citizenship, but you must first register in the Foreign Births Register E a child of D and a great-grandchild of A, born outside the island of Ireland Entitled to Irish citizenship, by having your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register, but only if your parent D had registered by the time of your birth.
The reason I think article 15 may apply in such instances is because, if interpreted literally, article 17 would surely disqualify the likes of Barton and Bruce. I acknowledge they would be categorised as player As under your example, but I'll explain why they're relevant to working out the article under which Irish nationals via descent might qualify. Defining NI as the territory of the FAI would appear to be a stretch of meaning and would certainly be a contentious interpretation, no matter what our own political views on the matter would be. Indeed, if article 17 did disqualify the likes of Barton or Bruce, but they are still perfectly eligible to play for us, then it would have to be article 15 under which they qualify. Essentially, what I'm saying is that maybe article 17 isn't the "granny rule"; maybe article 15 has that effect and so even those who are Irish via descent beyond an Irish grand-parent may well be perfectly eligible to play for us just so long as they are permanent Irish nationals, independent of any residence in Ireland.
Out of interest, did Chris Hughton qualify via an Irish parent or an Irish grand-parent, because I know his son Cian is eligible to play for us? I think Chris might have had an Irish parent, mind, but maybe someone could clear that up. Once again, though, the above is just my own speculation and guesswork based on how I'd interpret the text in light of the reality that Barton and Bruce do qualify for us. In spite of what some might have said, I'm certainly no authority.
What's interesting there (if I've read it correctly) is that Irish Citizenship can continue through the generations ad infinitum as long as the entry in the Foreign Births Register takes place before the birth of the next generation. I.e someone with a great-great-great grandparent born in Ireland could still be an irish citizen as long as the generations before them were? Is that right?
I thought you were off the drink Ronnie?
"No, I drink to help me mind my own business....can I get you one? (c) Ronnie Drew
exactly right.
Yeah, that's correct, Junior.
I recall reading about a case where a group of Argentinians of Irish descent sought Irish citizenship citing article 2 of the constitution - "the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage" - but had their application rejected as no legal obligation flows from this text and the births of their immediate ancestors hadn't been registered with the Foreign Births Register. Whilst citizenship laws in Italy, Israel and Japan, for example, make no legal mention of a special affinity or whatever with their diasporas, I believe there are legal avenues available by which members of the said diasporas descended from a generation beyond grand-parentage can claim Italian, Israeli or Japanese citizenship. That's all I know though. I'm not up-to-speed on the particular intricacies of each country's nationality laws, bar being familiar with Israel's Law of Return.
Here's an interesting one though; perhaps enlightening. I understand that the Argentine-born Mauro Camoranesi's Italian descent derives from a great-grandfather born in Le Marche in Italy. As a consequence of this link, he was legally entitled to claim Italian citizenship and, in turn, was deemed eligible to play for Italy. Perhaps his example demonstrates that players of Irish great-grandparents would be eligible for us also so long as they're in possession of Irish citizenship?
Think of all the Argentines and Chileans we are missing out on.
Dieg O'Folan, Gonzal O'Higgin, Dieg O'Maradona...
Disappointing to see that the piece I wrote doesn't seem to be attracting a huge deal of attention on OWC despite having been posted there at least twice by two separate users and re-tweeted by the poster on there who wrote this piece. A mere one poster has actually bothered to engage with it when mentioning the historical excerpt from the FAI's website and the idea of players switching taking the place of others in the IFA's set-up. I've since responded to both points on my own blog area as I don't post on OWC myself. Another rolls his eyes at the mention of Shane Ferguson being eligible to play for Scotland, but I have it from a reliable source that his mother is Scottish. It's not a big deal anyway, either way, considering the overall issue, so a strange thing with which to take issue.
The piece about "Prodestan" seems to be attracting more attention and derision, in fact, but what can you do?
I see that name is mentioned on GAA forums and comments sections in Belfast Telegraph articles relating to NI, but who is he exactly?I'm sure Tony Fearon had a hand in one of [the articles]
On a positive note, maybe the less counter-arguments there are forthcoming is a sign of all arguments well covered. I see an 'EdwardT' with two posts in total posted a link to my piece along with a comment that read suspiciously like that of a sockpuppet, ha.
I voted yes that Northern Ireland born players should be allowed play for ROI. As a Norn Iron fan, I think people need to accept that a lot of people in this country associate with the ROI team and are entitled to play for them as such. My problem is with those players who play U-21 and senior football for Norn Iron and then switch allegiance. I was sent a link by to an excellent article by an ROI fan, which discusses the eligibility issue in detail and clears up a number of the questions that I would have had previously.
http://greenscene.me/2011/06/fifa-pl...vailing-myths/
Its easy for people on this forum to talk about how the Ireland rugby authorities have shown contempt for Ulster Rugby and those of us from NI. However, surely we should ask ourselves does the same not apply to our football team. Like the Ireland rugby team, the IFA continue to use a flag and an anthem which does not represent many of our fellow citizens. Similarly many of the players belt out that anthem just like O'Gara belts out the SS.
A bit of perspective is required I feel. Often NI fans are pointing a finger at the South, whilst the other three fingers are pointing back at us. The sense of us being victims is pathetic really.
This sense of embarassment isn't helped by the ridiculous utterances of Nigel, the man child. By approaching Alex Bruce, Norn Iron is being left open to the same criticisms - poaching, sectarianising football on the island.Just in case anyone from here on there suspected that might have been me, considering my covert account, it wasn't.Without going into detail, an ROI fan pointed out to me that Bruce was from a certain religious background and that it appears the IFA are only interested in targeting players from such a background, thereby developing that sense of football apartheid. An interesting argument nonetheless.
Obregón is a fairly common surname in Mexico and is actually a latinised version of O'Brien. Keep the eyes peeled.
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