I think you just have to write the book rather than worrying about all this minutiae.....
How could Djourou slip through a crack? He was adopted by a Swiss national and moved to Switzerland as a baby. He is a naturalised Swiss citizen.Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
There is no need for Djourou to slip through a crack, he goes in through the front door.
Article 17 specifies the requirement of a biological parent, meaning an adoptive parent wouldn't have sufficed, and he hadn't fulfilled any of the other criteria within that article, so his eligibility for Switzerland clearly doesn't arise from that article. In light of that, why would it make any difference for the purpose of an under-18 qualifying to play for a country under article 15 whether he was a citizen by naturalisation or a citizen by registration of descent from a great-grandparent?
Djourou is already a naturalised citizen, well before his 18th birthday. He doesn't have to satisfy article 17 criteria of 5 years residence for a player acquiring a new nationality after reaching the age of 18. END of that discussion ..... unless you learn to say please and thanks
Refer to my earlier opinion.why would it make any difference for the purpose of an under-18 qualifying to play for a country under article 15 whether he was a citizen by naturalisation or a citizen by registration of descent from a great-grandparent?
Imo, technically the player (a citizen by registration of descent from a great-grandparent) acquires a new nationality, so technically I think article 17 applies. Possibly article 15 applies, possibly if citizenship is acquired before he becomes a player. But I don´t think so.
Why? that's just my thought process. Possibly my thought process is prejudiced by reading of players who failed to find sufficient parent/grandparent connection to Ireland, in order to qualify under article 17, even if they had been able to acquire citizenship..
I don't know exactly why I think like this.
Last edited by geysir; 05/06/2011 at 2:56 PM.
Wouldn't the difference be that the theoretical great-grandson is taking a permanent citizenship through descent that is not dependent on residency?
But didn't Djourou also acquire a new nationality, even if it was through the process of naturalisation? His original nationality from birth is Ivorian. And wouldn't Djourou's Swiss nationality have been dependent on residence? Technically, that should rule him out for Swiss eligibility under article 15 as well, no?
That would invoke article 15 rather than article 17. It's something I have considered, and something I considered in relation to the eligibility of Adam Barton and Alex Bruce who qualify for us via grandparents born in the north. I suppose it comes down to the meaning of "permanent"; whether it means the nationality needs to have been permanent from birth or permanent from the moment of conferral. I don't know what FIFA's approach is with regard to that.
Or is it a case of, say, Bruce or Barton's nationality being acknowledged as permanent but because it's also newly-acquired (after the age of 18?), whilst they "refer" to article 15, they also must satisfy the criteria laid down in article 17? Of course, that would entail interpreting the definition of "territory" rather loosely - as in viewing NI as the territory of the FAI - which is something over which my literal head holds reservation, even if such an interpretation might happen to favour personal interests. I understand that geysir takes the purposive approach to interpreting it, which might well be correct, but I don't think one can be fully certain beyond FIFA actually offering clarification.
His citizenship isn't based on residence - he hasn't lived in Switzerland since he was 15. Very few countries actually require residence to retain citizenship.
Sorry, yeah, not having looked through the exact details of the criteria for Swiss citizenship bar this, I assume his citizenship was acquired after being adopted by a Swiss citizen. I overlooked that for a moment.
I'll use Innocent Emeghara as an example then. I'm not certain of the descent of his parentage or whether he was adopted or whatever, but is it fair to assume, for the sake of argument at least, that he has no Swiss descent and wasn't adopted but acquired his Swiss citizenship through naturalisation? Again, not fully aware of Swiss law's stipulations on this bar a Wiki run-down, but is at least one aspect of the naturalisation process not generally a requirement to fulfil a residence of a set number of years? How did Chinedu Vine acquire Irish nationality or Nedum Onouha acquire British nationality, for example, if not through at least some sort of residence clause?
I think you're reading too much into the "dependent on residence" clause. They don't actually define what it means but I think it's reasonable to say it's designed to exclude children of, for instance, economic migrants who don't qualify for citizenship but are resident on the basis of a rolling green card or whatever. I don't think that's entirely fair but it's obviously designed to avoid political problems.
I wouldn't confuse "nationality dependent on residence" with nationality acquired through residence. And, also, Djourou (theoretically, had he not been adopted by a Swiss) would still have gained his citizenship through his parents, not residence.
What's this about Danny's foray into the world of publishing?
(I've been very busy the past few weeks)
I'm gradually working on an all-in-one type piece with the aim of clearing up as many of the myths and misconceptions surrounding the issue as I can, as well as giving a bit of background and context to the issue for those reading it from the outside. I came across an Australian blog the other week, for example, that discussed the issue and the blogger seemed to completely miss the point that national identity was the crux of the issue here. He seemed to understand it as a case of mercenaries taking advantage of some FIFA loophole so they might have a greater chance of playing in a World Cup or something.
Most of what I'm including will have been discussed here already but I think it would be handy to have just one coherent piece that can be read fluidly and spread around the web easily. I'll post it up here when I'm happy with it and if anyone wishes to add anything or suggest some tweaks, that'll be great. Sending it off to various media outlets, especially the likes of the Belfast Telegraph, is an idea, or maybe having bits of it published somewhere. It shouldn't quite reach the length of a book.
It's a pamphlet then?It shouldn't quite reach the length of a book.
Whatever form it takes, I look forward to reading this magnum opus.
If you need any help just pm me.
Last edited by The Fly; 06/06/2011 at 9:27 PM.
I'm gradually working on an all-in-one type piece with the aim of clearing up as many of the myths and misconceptions surrounding the issue as I can, as well as giving a bit of background and context to the issue for those reading it from the outside. I came across an Australian blog the other week, for example, that discussed the issue and the blogger seemed to completely miss the point that national identity was the crux of the issue here. He seemed to understand it as a case of mercenaries taking advantage of some FIFA loophole so they might have a greater chance of playing in a World Cup or something.
Most of what I'm including will have been discussed here already but I think it would be handy to have just one coherent piece that can be read fluidly and spread around the web easily. I'll post it up here when I'm happy with it and if anyone wishes to add anything or suggest some tweaks, that'll be great. Sending it off to various media outlets, especially the likes of the Belfast Telegraph, is an idea, or maybe having bits of it published somewhere. It shouldn't quite reach the length of a book.
I do like the idea of still sending a letter to the BT though in advance of the pamphlet's completion.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
I'm not sure Steven Beacom et al would be able to make head nor tail of it what with all the facts, logic and properly constructed sentences.
Should someone translate it first?
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
Just something I've been wondering in relation to the following reported statement by Jim Boyce in 1999 after his meeting with Bernard O'Byrne:
Should that be "there was little the IFA could do" to prevent it or is it as it should be; that the FAI were in little position to turn away approaches?The issue of Northern Ireland’s eligible players opting to play for the Republic was discussed at length with the FAI. It was also stressed that if a player made an approach himself, there was little the FAI could do unless FIFA was to change legislation. That, we accept. But at least we have agreed to notify one another should this happen.
Well let's send em the first draft and if that's not published we could send it here for some gibberisation.
I always read it as the "the FAI were in little position to turn away approaches". Which is a fact. WE could hardly claim to represent "Ireland" as a nation (as opposed to a State or Territory) if we were turning people down from playing with us. Just because they happened to be born in Derry, Tyrone, Antrim, Fermanagh, Armagh or Down.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Not to worry. Seeing as the English explanations never seemed to work, I've been working on an Ulster-Scots version for our northern brethren anyway.
Thon Wee Daftie Rules fae Fitbaa Players frae Norlin Airlann but o Erse Cit'zinshup cus o Thur Fowkgates...
I reckon you're probably right, by the way. Either could have made sense, but I just thought that would be a point the FAI would have been making rather than the likes of Jim Boyce for some reason, although CAS did also make a similar point in their Kearns judgment; that had the FAI refused to acknowledge Daniel Kearns' intention to switch or had they made some agreement with the IFA unbeknownst to FIFA, such as the claimed gentleman's agreement, they would have been denying Kearns his rights under FIFA's regulations.
And thus in that sentence CAS had the IFA squarely over a barrel.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
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