Eligibility Rules, Okay

[DannyInvincible]

Not sure where exactly this one fits, but it's an odd one that relates to the statutes, according to Platini: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/inter...t-quit-france/

Franck Ribery could face a suspension if he refuses to represent his country again, according to UEFA president Michel Platini.

Ribery announced his retirement from international football after injury ruled him out of the World Cup finals.

But according to Platini, a player cannot refuse a summons to national duty if there is no physical problem impeding them from doing so.

Ribery's retirement at the age of 31 would therefore be unenforceable should France coach Didier Deschamps still want to select the Bayern Munich winger.

"If Deschamps calls him up, then he has to come to the national team," Platini told Bild am Sonntag.

"That's written in the FIFA statutes. If he doesn't report for duty, then he would be banned for three matches for Bayern Munich.

"It is not the player's decision whether he represents his country, it's the decision of the coach.

"Ribery cannot simply decide for himself whether he wants to play for France or not."

What regulation is Platini referring to there? He surely can't be correct in saying that a player can be compelled to play for an international side by the threat of a general suspension...

[Closed Account]

Not sure where exactly this one fits, but it's an odd one that relates to the statutes, according to Platini: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/inter...t-quit-france/



What regulation is Platini referring to there? He surely can't be correct in saying that a player can be compelled to play for an international side by the threat of a general suspension...

Annexe 1 here it seems: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affe...s_en_33410.pdf

Didn't this rear it's head in 2006 with Makelele prompting Mourinho to call him a slave. Quick browse through that has a Fifa spokesman saying that Makelele could have retired if he wanted.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...ea/5298458.stm

Platini should make sure everyone is rowing the same direction on this before he speaks up on it.

[DannyInvincible]

Annexe 1 here it seems: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affe...s_en_33410.pdf

Didn't this rear it's head in 2006 with Makelele prompting Mourinho to call him a slave. Quick browse through that has a Fifa spokesman saying that Makelele could have retired if he wanted.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...ea/5298458.stm

Platini should make sure everyone is rowing the same direction on this before he speaks up on it.

Annexe 1 imposes a duty upon clubs to release players. It prevents clubs from holding back players who wish to represent their international team. It does not impose a duty upon players to represent their national side if called upon. That's entirely voluntary and always has been. Compelling a player to play would cause all sorts of problems. For one, it could have meant that the IFA called up, say, James McClean and forced him to play a senior competitive fixture in order to permanently tie him. No player would be able to voluntarily retire from international football either if what Platini says is true.

Article 1.7 of the annexe implies that the players themselves do have a choice to comply with a call-up:

"Players complying with a call-up from their association under the terms of this article shall resume duty with their clubs no later than 24 hours after the end of the match for which they were called up."

I think Platini is talking nonsense.

[gastric]

Hard to believe that anyone would think this is enforceable. Might the FAI request that Richard Dunne play for us again? I would hope not as he has been a great servant to Irish football and should be allowed to determine his own career. The only player we could use it for is Stephen Ireland. Call him up and when he refuses, he can be banned from playing three games for Stoke........reserves!

[DannyInvincible]

Just getting another look at this and I see that article 3.1 of annexe 1 states:

"As a general rule, every player registered with a club is obliged to respond affirmatively when called up by the association he is eligible to represent on the basis of his nationality to play for one of its representative teams."

I still don't understand how that can be enforced though. Dual nationals can't be compelled to play for either of the associations for whom they're eligible so as to permanently tie them to one or the other. If I understand the wording correctly, however, when Shane Duffy (friendly against Albania in February of 2010) and James McClean (Euro 2012 qualifier against the Faroe Islands in August of 2011) opted out of IFA squads, after having already been officially selected, with the intention of switching to the FAI, technically-speaking, they were acting in breach of the regulations?

[DannyInvincible]

Ribery has said he'll stick by his international retirement decision in spite of Platini's threat: http://www.theguardian.com/football/...atini-pressure

Franck Ribéry has insisted he has no plans to reverse his decision to retire from international football despite pressure from the Uefa president, Michel Platini.

Last month, the Bayern Munich forward announced he had played his final game for France, having been forced to miss the World Cup with a back injury. That decision was heavily criticised by Platini, who also threatened the 31-year-old with a ban if he ignores a future call-up from Didier Deschamps.

But Ribéry believes the issue has already been resolved and is adamant he will not change his mind. “I have already said before I have retired from international duty and I will not go back on my decision,” he told the German newspaper Der Welt.

“I have discussed this with France coach Deschamps and we reached an agreement on it. I want to focus completely on Bayern Munich in the future. That’s all I want to say about the matter. I am not going to get involved in all the politics surrounding my decision.”

Platini threatened Ribéry with suspension if he sticks with his decision, stating that it was not down to the player to decided when to retire. “If Deschamps calls him up, then he has to come to the national team,’’ Platini said. “That’s written in the Fifa statutes. If he doesn’t report for duty, then he would be banned for three matches for Bayern Munich.

“It is not the player’s decision whether he represents his country, it’s the decision of the coach. Ribéry cannot simply decide for himself whether he wants to play for France or not.”

[tricky_colour]

But both of Noble's parents were born in England. Anyway, I don't think it's something that can be simply quantified by a mathematical formula like that. I mean, how would you quantify Noe Baba's Irishness using the same simplistic methodology as you outline above? Irishness is a feeling (that can, of course, be legally certified; meaning you're either an Irish national or you're not); it isn't something that can be quantified as a specific number, fraction or percentile.



But that's not evidence of anything. It's just conjecture. Or conspiracy theory, even. More likely, Mark Noble has been overlooked for the English senior team because he has never been deemed good enough by whatever managers they've had in charge. The same applies to Kevin Nolan. If the FA had a problem with Noble's "diluted" English identity, why would he have been allowed to captain their under-21 side? As I've demonstrated, they've had absolutely no problem with regularly selecting players of mixed heritage.

Well it depends on your definition or Irishness, everyone will have their own personal definition, including FIFA
but at the end of the day it is FIFA's definition that matters, and of you have to have an official definition otherwise
there would by chaos. Hence officially Irishness is not a feeling it is clearly defined rule set by FIFA.
Of course some will have a problem with that but people would have a problem with the definition in certain
cases however it was defined.
Indeed every manager probably has their own definition or pecking order of Irishness.

Selection (S) probably comes down to: S = (degree of Irishness X technical ability).

Now in England case if they have two player so exactly the same ability but one is 'more English'
than the other I think the more English one is going to get picked, that seems quite obvious to me.

But of course that will be extended slightly I think when a slightly less capable "very English" player is picked
over a slightly more capable "not so English" player. I think that may have happened with Nobel however I
don't have an Encyclopaedic knowledge of the ability of English players over the years to be able to prove that,
and of course it is somewhat subjective, but that is "my theory".

I don't put too much weight by the u21 stuff that is a slightly different kettle of fish and indeed it may actually
confirm my theory because the u21 is not taken so seriously so they may just go purely by player ability,
no many take as much interest in u21. I doubt many could name the England U21 team now.

[osarusan]

Well it depends on your definition or Irishness, everyone will have their own personal definition, including FIFA
but at the end of the day it is FIFA's definition that matters, and of you have to have an official definition otherwise
there would by chaos. Hence officially Irishness is not a feeling it is clearly defined rule set by FIFA.
Of course some will have a problem with that but people would have a problem with the definition in certain
cases however it was defined.

FIFA never really talk about or attempt to define nationality. They only deal with eligibility.

[tricky_colour]

FIFA never really talk about or attempt to define nationality. They only deal with eligibility.

Yes but that ends up as defining nationality, you can only have one nationality at a time as
far as FIFA are concerned, or at least you can't switch, or maybe you can now, I am not up to
date with the latest rules.

[Closed Account]

Well it depends on your definition or Irishness, ........ I doubt many could name the England U21 team now.

Tricky, this is your 4th post in this thread and it's 1 too many I hope this latest one is a result of one too many also.

By the by, do you still subscribe to this world view?

Personally I feel we should scrap the eligibility rules altogether and let players play for whichever country they like
regardless of birth place or nationality.

Initially it sounds like a mad idea, but the more you think about it the more you realise it is the right way to go.

And as osarusun is online, does the following ring true with you in regards to Grealish?

The 'is it fair to criticise' argument is on that I don't accept. He was an adult FFS.

Is it realistic to expect an adult to decide not to represent a team at underage level when he feels uncomfortable representing them and has supported another international team since he was a boy? Yes it is.


If we are to believe that McClean has been a ROI fan since a young boy, then his representing NI at underage level as a 'stepping stone' is something he should definitely be criticised for, and it's something he should be apologising for, rather than seemingly being proud of.

Stirring the pot.....

[osarusan]

And as osarusun is online, does the following ring true with you in regards to Grealish?


Stirring the pot.....

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the relevance of that.

If Grealish starts saying that he only played for Ireland underage teams as a stepping stone, then sure, he should be criticised. Has he said something like that?

I'm not that familiar with Grealish and his comments so far. Are there similarities with McClean?

[Closed Account]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the relevance of that.

If Grealish starts saying that he only played for Ireland underage teams as a stepping stone, then sure, he should be criticized. Has he said something like that?

Was only stirring, i realise the difference in situation. Not that I agree with your opinion about McClean but that horse is well and truely flogged

[DannyInvincible]

Well it depends on your definition or Irishness, everyone will have their own personal definition, including FIFA
but at the end of the day it is FIFA's definition that matters, and of you have to have an official definition otherwise
there would by chaos. Hence officially Irishness is not a feeling it is clearly defined rule set by FIFA.

Irishness is a concept that is not strictly defined (everyone's view of it may indeed vary, as you point out), but Irish nationality is defined by Irish law; not by FIFA. FIFA merely legislate for eligibility for national football teams. Their eligibility regulations operate on the basis of pre-existing recognised nationalities.

Now in England case if they have two player so exactly the same ability but one is 'more English'
than the other I think the more English one is going to get picked, that seems quite obvious to me.

Why would that seem obvious? To me, it's quite an extraordinary claim that doesn't really stand up to serious challenge.

But of course that will be extended slightly I think when a slightly less capable "very English" player is picked
over a slightly more capable "not so English" player. I think that may have happened with Nobel however I
don't have an Encyclopaedic knowledge of the ability of English players over the years to be able to prove that,
and of course it is somewhat subjective, but that is "my theory".

So, which is it; an obvious fact to you or merely conspiracy theory/your opinion?

I don't put too much weight by the u21 stuff that is a slightly different kettle of fish and indeed it may actually
confirm my theory because the u21 is not taken so seriously so they may just go purely by player ability,
no many take as much interest in u21. I doubt many could name the England U21 team now.

Who doesn't take under-21 level seriously? Why would the FA employ a distinct selection policy for their youth teams and another for their senior team? Not that they do anyway. The evidence demonstrates that they're very happy to select players for the senior team who are of mixed heritage. Wayne Rooney (of strong Irish heritage) is their current captain. How do you explain that?

Yes but that ends up as defining nationality, you can only have one nationality at a time as
far as FIFA are concerned, or at least you can't switch, or maybe you can now, I am not up to
date with the latest rules.

Hehe, aren't you aware that Shane Duffy and James McClean once played for IFA teams? And weren't we just discussing the prospect of Mark Noble switching, ye madman ye?!

[tricky_colour]

Tricky, this is your 4th post in this thread and it's 1 too many I hope this latest one is a result of one too many also.

By the by, do you still subscribe to this world view?

Actually that world view is pretty much the status quo in the premiership, no Man U player comes form Manchester, so why should English players
have any association with England (and indeed many don't )

[tricky_colour]

Irishness is a concept that is not strictly defined (everyone's view of it may indeed vary, as you point out), but Irish nationality is defined by Irish law; not by FIFA. FIFA merely legislate for eligibility for national football teams. Their eligibility regulations operate on the basis of pre-existing recognised nationalities.



Why would that seem obvious? To me, it's quite an extraordinary claim that doesn't really stand up to serious challenge.



So, which is it; an obvious fact to you or merely conspiracy theory/your opinion?



Who doesn't take under-21 level seriously? Why would the FA employ a distinct selection policy for their youth teams and another for their senior team? Not that they do anyway. The evidence demonstrates that they're very happy to select players for the senior team who are of mixed heritage. Wayne Rooney (of strong Irish heritage) is their current captain. How do you explain that?



Hehe, aren't you aware that Shane Duffy and James McClean once played for IFA teams? And weren't we just discussing the prospect of Mark Noble switching, ye madman ye?!

Yes well the rule is you can switch if you have not played a full international I think, I think you can also switch if you change your nationality whcih anyone
can do hence my idea of a free for all it not to far off I think, it is only a matter of time. I expect switching mid competition will be ruled out as it is in
the FA cup.

THe McClean and Duffy thingis interesting as they merely played for the country they live in, however with Grealish he went over to Ireland
which is a positive sign I guess.

[DannyInvincible]

Actually that world view is pretty much the status quo in the premiership, no Man U player comes form Manchester, so why should English players
have any association with England (and indeed many don't )

Aye, but that's kind of, y'know, the crucial and intended distinction between club football and international football... The whole point is the national connection. Would you rather Ireland's squad featured players from all around the globe with no tie to the nation whatsoever?

Which current England players have no association with England?

Yes well the rule is you can switch if you have not played a full international I think, I think you can also switch if you change your nationality whcih anyone
can do hence my idea of a free for all it not to far off I think, it is only a matter of time. I expect switching mid competition will be ruled out as it is in
the FA cup.

Aye, you can switch association once if you've not yet played a competitive senior international. It's why Alex Bruce was OK to switch to the IFA. He'd only played in senior friendlies for us. If you acquire a new nationality and seek to switch association, however, you must have parents or grandparents from the territory of your new association or you must have resided in that territory for at least five continuous years. Players can't just select a new nationality and switch association at whim, so no need to fear a free-for-all just yet, ha. As you correctly expect though, switching mid-competition is also prohibited in the sense that any switching player will be effectively "cup-tied", although that only applies to under-age competitions for obvious reasons, as playing in a competitive senior fixture would see a player already tied to an association and unable to switch.

THe McClean and Duffy thingis interesting as they merely played for the country they live in, however with Grealish he went over to Ireland
which is a positive sign I guess.

Loads of England-born players have "went over" to Ireland. It's not as if Grealish's case is unprecedented.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

http://www.thescore.ie/paddy-mcnair-...89552-Sep2014/

[SwanVsDalton]

http://www.thescore.ie/paddy-mcnair-...89552-Sep2014/

If he's from Ballyclare, then there's almost certainly no chance he'll be declaring for us.

[DannyInvincible]

He's played for NI at under-16, under-17, under-19 and under-21 level, as far as I can make out. Is there talk he's considering switching? I thought you weren't a fan of idle speculation/name-bandying of this sort, Knockers.

[liamoo11]

http://www.thescore.ie/paddy-mcnair-...89552-Sep2014/

There is no reason to think this lad is anything but commited to the north. Until FIFA revoke the membership of NI, scotland and wales and force paddy to choose between Britain and ireland this is a non story