Good man. Let's see if we can resolve that 5%.Originally Posted by BttW
Windsor Park and Surrounds
I accept that Tate's Avenue on a NI match evening- and the Lisburn Road/ Shaftesbury Square pubs- can be messy. Can we look to policing/ stewarding/ self-policing to make steady if small improvements?
Flags and Emblems
I think you're being both unrealistic and unreasonable about the NI Flag. Almost all non-Nationalist opinion is either positive or neutral on it; Nationalist opinion hasn't suggested any alternative likely to result in a compromise change. I don't link the Flag primarily with Basil Brooke, Ian Paisley or abuses by other people long gone. Middle class teenagers- like everyone else locally- surely already know that NI is a divided society? Given that they see (and use) divisive symbols all the time.
Childhood Support
Nationalist fans in NI will continue to mainly look to RoI for the reasons we've both set out above. The IFA will never change their symbolism enough to satisfy all Nationalist critics; kids will watch the match with their parents.That said, my brother supports Linfield like our Da's brother. And not sure about your Liverpool- Everton example. If one of them slumps for an extended period outside the Prem they'll lose support to the other
https://www.thesun.ie/sport/football...galway-united/
Was trying to ascertain if his brother had been injured recently and knocked across this article from a few months back. Rory Hale states that he was told to keep his head up for GSTQ and also said that it's a "bit dodgy" making the jump across to our set up at 16 or 17. Not sure what he means by that but we have seen a good few instances of players waiting a while before moving across to us.
I think Hale is just articulating the pragmatic view there. I'd guess he means that switching at that age could be a risky move career-wise - even if playing for Ireland would always be the preference for cultural or national identity reasons - when there's no need to rush into anything and limit one's options so early on, as far as the FIFA regulations are concerned anyway.
In some cases, a decision to switch may effectively or practically amount to a "retirement" from international level football, as the player switching may never get a chance with his new association, so I'm guessing Hale is advising players to leave it until they've matured and developed a bit more so they can then better or more realistically gauge their potential or chance of making a success out of a decision to switch. If some players are content enough to continue playing with the IFA up until that point in spite of the cultural baggage and the IFA are happy to continue selecting them for their own ends (which is the reality), fair enough; I don't see a major problem with that.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 07/11/2017 at 2:42 PM.
This is a bit rum. I very much doubt any IFA official or fellow youth player insisted on any anthem protocol. At our Senior games there is a wide range of styles used by the players. More likely someone trolling on social media. Hale wants to play for the FAI teams and that's fine, just do it and stop gurning (although I realise he may have been fed loaded questions by a journalist). As for GSTQ, either it's something that contradicts your self-identity (in which politely decline a NI youth cap), or it isn't, in which case stop gurning as above.
I have no doubt based on the evidence.
He clearly refers to they in the IFA telling him to keep his head up for GSTQ: https://www.thesun.ie/sport/football...galway-united/
"Yeah, 100 per cent, it was a no brainer (moving to the FAI). I wasn’t treated right through the younger age groups with Northern Ireland. I didn’t really play and they’d say stuff about keeping the head up for the national anthem and all — when you’ve got different beliefs, you can’t really be doing that"
Last edited by tetsujin1979; 07/11/2017 at 4:26 PM. Reason: mod edit, just including a link to the interview
Maybe it's a bit dodgy from Rory's pov because 16 and 17 yos are likely to still be living in the jurisdiction to which they have just "turned their backs" on.
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@GR, Maybe the change in symbolism should be considered from the pov of the players who might lineout for ye. Making the players more comfortable should be the aim. Nationalists are never gonna support ye in their droves.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
@Bonita: aye, fair enough. As you know I support changing our anthem and some other symbols. That should make some players more uncomfortable without causing discomfort for others.
@Geysir- I'll meet you half way. I agree that Hale likely got fed up with playing for NI because the coach didn't pick him.
That's not meeting me half way, that's still denying that he was referring to the IFA as the source of keeping the the head up for GSTQ, but yet you dangle some other rabbit hat magic as being a probable source for the gstq comment. That Rory gets all mixed up and can't tell the difference between trolling on social media and an IFA instruction. Or that Rory has deliberate agenda to blacken the IFA because he's still sore at being left out.
Just maybe the IFA are reluctant to pick lads who keep their head down
I think i'll put more weight on Rory's word that your imaginings.
Afternoon G. I've been watching NI games- including youth and women, often with players nearly outnumbering the crowd- for decades. In all that time I've never previously heard any suggestion that players were coached in how to behave during national anthems, nor seen any evidence that anyone took any notice of it. And there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. So, I'm skeptical that it happened as Hale describes. I have more trust in my own long experience that one disgruntled player making vague accusations. Or some guy riffing his own bias on here.
One does not have to believe everything, but when you disagree with a short excerpt from a player's account of his direct experience with the NI squad over a period of 18 months, then the player must be disbelieved because he's disgruntled, he must be lying, he's got an agenda to blacken the (angelic) IFA, he's confused between a social media trolling and reality, he's disillusional and if someone picks you up on your prejudice, that's just some guy riffing his own bias on here.Afternoon G. I've been watching NI games- including youth and women, often with players nearly outnumbering the crowd- for decades. In all that time I've never previously heard any suggestion that players were coached in how to behave during national anthems
nor seen any evidence that anyone took any notice of it. And there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. So, I'm skeptical that it happened as Hale describes. I have more trust in my own long experience that one disgruntled player making vague accusations. Or some guy riffing his own bias on here.
And then in the middle of all that self serving flight of fancy, you add in your credibility as an all knowing source.
Rory sounds anything but disgruntled, he's now where he always wanted to be re international set up and if asked in an interview about his experience with the IFA he has every right to express that he wasn't played much and for him it was not a good experience.
I'm afraid i will have to turn the words unrealistic and unreasonable back on you. Nationalists aren't about to propose a new flag for the north. We are trying to abolish the northern state, not rehabilitate it. That flag is NEVER going to gain official recognition, and if unionism ever wants to have a flag that doesn't need to be followed by an asterisk it's up to unionism to do something about it. We are quite content that the only flag the state has is at best a de facto one that history will not judge well.
There is little more that can be done to address the issue around the environs of Lisburn Road on match night. It's a societal issue that will be solved in time by the greening of south Belfast.
Last edited by backstothewall; 10/11/2017 at 9:14 PM.
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
There's a line there that I genuinely love and will use again- "We are trying to abolish the northern state, not rehabilitate it."
From my completely external perspective, it seems to me like the whole 'why can't we just all get along' sentiment ignored the fact that everyone living together in peace and Harmony in the current circumstances only suits one side i.e. the unionist side.
Big shout out to Corry Evans' wife also for winning plonker of the week. She really managed to besmirch a few related reputations.
Lame comeback. 'You smell of wee. No, you do', effectively. Everyone knows your (plural) attitude to the NI flag. And the attitude of many of you to where you live. You'd rather paralyse local government and damage the public services you rely on on the pretence of a language barely any of you can speak conversationally. All to notionally increase slightly the likelihood of Southern parties agreeing with you to the point where they actually do something about it (eg when you get 70% public support, according to Varadkar).
Maybe not from you or Michelle P. O'Neill. A shame, but your loss. We'll just have FIFA and UEFA recognise it instead.That flag is NEVER going to gain official recognition
Translation: 'YOU need to change to please us, even though [as per point above] whatever you do short of sailing off into the sunset we'll reject'. Did I mention you personally were unreasonable and unrealistic?and if unionism ever wants to have a flag that doesn't need to be followed by an asterisk it's up to unionism to do something about it
De facto judgement and recognition by notional future historians is OK by me. I don't really need much more than that- De Jure enthusiasm from some people on the internet?We are quite content that the only flag the state has is at best a de facto one that history will not judge well
There's plenty that can be done, as has been done in the past. Behavior at and around football matches has changed hugely while I've been watching- why should that not improve further? The proportion of Nationalist voters in BT9 is incidental to this, not least because (surprising as it may be to you) they're just as likely to drop litter or urinate in public after football as anyone else.There is little more that can be done to address the issue around the environs of Lisburn Road on match night. It's a societal issue that will be solved in time by the greening of south Belfast
Your second point is an outsider's opinion like the first. Not a fact. When I was a child, much of my mainly Unionist family were intimidated from their homes by paramilitarism. Same thing happened to many Nationalist neighbors, and you know what? They'd have been quite happy with relative peace and harmony, from my perspective (both internal, external and first hand).
Nasty bigoted comments, just shows how unwise it is to air your prejudice on social media in the wee wee hours.Big shout out to Corry Evans' wife also for winning plonker of the week. She really managed to besmirch a few related reputations
Look, my comment wasn't condoning paramilitarism so I'm hesitant to give you much of a response. Just to be clear- my point was that steps such as changing the anthem from GTSQ to something else would still mean the players are representing Northern Ireland. A more diluted version and of Northern Ireland, maybe, but Northern Ireland all the same. I was trying to contextualize, from my own point of view, how that sits with backstothewall's comment that the idea on his side would be to abolish NI, not dilute it (although, maybe that's the best that a nationalist can hope for).
I wasn't suggesting you condoned violence, rather that your comment about 'let's get along' was a bit trite. As I've said here aplenty I agree changing the NI anthem would make little difference to nationalist critics (although it would please me as a NI fan).
Indeed. I imagine it's the 'best' you're likely to get in the medium term (by which I mean a generation or so, not just until Varadkar is replaced by McDonald or some FF Gombeen.I was trying to contextualize, from my own point of view, how that sits with backstothewall's comment that the idea on his side would be to abolish NI, not dilute it (although, maybe that's the best that a nationalist can hope for)
Last edited by Gather round; 11/11/2017 at 2:24 PM.
Yeah, those comments were quite staggering. You'd get the impression she isn't the brightest, to put it mildly.
Out for a spell, got neglected, lay on the bench unselected.
Yes. The precise quote was "I think you're being both unrealistic and unreasonable about the NI Flag".
I'm not going to address the stuff about the Irish language etc as it's beyond even a tenuous connection to football.
I'm curious about this. What would nationalism accepting a compromise in this matter look like? If that would be us not grumbling about the flag being a sectarian relic of a disgraced regime then I think we would accept it. If nationalist rejection is anything short of the likes of me cancelling our FAI season tickets and standing behind the goal at Windsor Park singing Sweet Caroline instead, then you are probably right.
The trouble you have is that FIFA is just about the biggest organisation in the world who recognise that flag as representing NI. I'd say, and i believe you expressed a similar view above, is that you guys should want something new without any baggage for your own reasons. By grasping the nettle and enduring a little difficulty with a section of your fanbase in the short term you could put the issue to bed. Though as i said above that principle applys to all of society and i recognise it isn't fair to expect a football association to take the lead ahead of unionist leaders in society.
The difference there is that when nationalist voters from BT9 drop litter or urinate in public after football they are probably doing it in D4.
What i mean is that the sort of behaviour i'm talking about, which isn't taking a pee up an entry or dropping a crisp bag on the street, will be a lot less likely to be put up with in licensed premises as the nature of the area changes. Either people engaging in it will find themselves being chucked out of pubs, or the pubs int he area will simply stop letting anyone in football colours in on match nights. People will be spread out to other areas of the city and the issue will be that much more diffused.
But credit where it is due. The IFA have done an excellent job in Windsor Park
P.S. Hard luck on going out. You didn't do much over the 2 legs, but neither did the Swiss. The ref in the 1st game has really ****ed you over.
Last edited by backstothewall; 12/11/2017 at 8:49 PM.
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
Walk down the Falls Road and come back and tell me nobody speaks it. Hardly an all-inclusive ‘lets get along’ attitude now is it?
If you knew anything about the Irish language you would know how much it has grown in Belfast, Derry and Dublin in recent years.
Maybe stick to what you know best. Defending the statelet and all it’s regal glory. Ulster-Scots included. Which to me is English in a thick accent. But I would never possibly say that on a social media forum as it’s just not my place.
Just to remind everyone this thread is to discuss issues regarding eligibility, and only issues around eligibility.
Well said. There's a nasty sectarianism evident in this thread as long as I've been reading it. Just goes to show that, despite the fact that most ROI fans still cling to the myth that England are our great rivals, it's 'The North' that people really hate. But we better not get into that...
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