It's saying that the IFA had a policy of selecting players from the Free State. After the Republic was declared 1949, FIFA wrote a letter to the IFA telling them to stop selecting citizens of "Eire". That's my best guess as to what is meant by 'licence revoked'.Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
see also page 13 and 14 of the Daniel Kearns CAS judgement for more info
Last edited by geysir; 10/04/2011 at 7:14 PM.
I see where my confusion arose now. I'd been aware of all that but, the way it was worded, I mistook "they" to be referring to the "Football Association in Dublin" as that's who the immediately preceding paragraph had been referring to.
To be fair lurked on there for a while, but blew my cover in Sept. '07 with the thread,I would be surprised if you lasted longer than Paul Butler did
'Puppets 1, Muppets 0' !
You'd have thought they'd have at least been happy enough to see the funny side for that one??
The founder of the FB group, judging by his correspondence to the BT & other Northern media , seems to have set him set himself up against their ultimate uber-nemesis of OWB, a Mr. Tony Fearon, I believe of Portadown.I first posted on OWC in 2007 when the Darron Gibson "tug-of-war" was at the top of the agenda but the account was only suspended in 2010 when I returned with a better understanding of the eligibility issue in general to offer a clearly unpopular argument against the user who'd set up the bizarre, twisted and disingenuous Facebook campaign, "Protect Northern Ireland players' identity rights". If I had been accessing the site under some other alias then I ought to have been banned when I first set up the supposed second account in 2007, surely? It just didn't add up.
Anyway, just under seven more years to wait now before I can rejoin the lively and probing debate again...
(His colleague (who founded OWB), judging by certain e-mail exchanges we had beyond MB's, seemed then to be a deeply unpleasant and paranoid man.)
Certain members of that board even accused me of being the aforementioned Mr.Fearon.
But yer man is in a league of his own. That said, would stand him a scoop or two if our paths ever crossed.
And DI, yeah the image is just about right.
Can't believe that my own 'sentence' is about 5 years less.....Though don't think I'll bother to try to engage with them again.
Last edited by ArdeeBhoy; 11/04/2011 at 2:25 AM.
Vague isn't the word I'd use but very odd passage nonetheless. It should be understood that the FAI's establishment was not a split from the IFA but an attempt to replace it. Wider political events helped ease the establishment of the FAI and the FAI was subsequently admitted to FIFA in 1923 as the FAIFS (Football Association of the Irish Free State). From this point it confined its selection policies to the Irish Free State. However wider political changes in the mid-1930's saw the FAI revert back to its original name and re-adopt its original "agenda" to replace the IFA as the governing footballing body on the island of Ireland. Therefore it no longer confined its selection policies to the Irish Free State. After WW2 and the admittance of the IFA to FIFA, there were two FIFA members competing as "Ireland" and acting as the footballing association of the island. Intervention by FIFA was needed as both associations were essentially picking from the same player pool as certain players were lining out for both associations. This intervention ultimately led to the IFA being confined to NI, the end of players lining out for both associations and the introduction of the modern day team names of the ROI and NI.
Last edited by ifk101; 11/04/2011 at 8:35 AM.
It was nothing to do with the declaration of the Republic in 1948. FIFA's rules on playing for more than one country remained lax for years afterwards. They do appear to have clamped down on playing in the same world cup qualifying campaign at that time though.
The FAI put pressure on English clubs not to release players for NI. It is documented in Peter Byrne's official history of the FAI. Con Martin was told by Aston Villa he wouldn't be released again to the IFA for games. Others were tolod likewise. The Home Championship match at Wrexham in March 1950 was the last official All Ireland side.
Edit. Prior to the IFA joining FIFA after WW2 the British Home Championship was not regulated by FIFA. It was assumed by the IFA that therefore FIFA regulation did not apply to the Home Championship once the IFA joined FIFA. However the Home Championship was now also doubling as a WC qualifier group. Therefore the FAI put pressure on clubs not to release "their" players for the IFA's team in the Home Championship. The IFA subsequently went to FIFA to complain about this pressure the FAI was placing on players to which FIFA ruled that the IFA was no longer permitted to pick players falling under the FAI jurisdiction for WC qualifer matches.
Last edited by ifk101; 11/04/2011 at 10:10 AM.
DI was asking about the reference in the FAI's history page about the IFA's "license" to pick players born in the Republic being "revoked". The corresponding historical timeline justification for using the term "license revoked" is the FIFA letter of April 1951 saying in effect that another Association could not select "Eire" citizens/players.
'On the other hand, the Executive Committee consider it inadmissible to select players, being citizens of Eire, for the representative teams of a country other than Eire. An exception from this rule is only allowable in respect of the international matches between the four British Associations if those countries agree and the F.A. of Ireland do not object, but not for matches played in Jules Rimet Cup”.
Whether the declaration of a Republic had effect here is not of real importance, it is part of the timeline. I think my answer to DI was clear and satisfactory.
That is how FIFA tried to regulate the Associations before they wrote the criteria into the statute books.
The statutes and clearer eligibility regulations were a slow work in progress and the pace of that progress was regular part of the growth of a global association like FIFA
Last edited by geysir; 11/04/2011 at 10:14 AM.
What is your source for the FAI attempting to repalce the IFA in the 20's & 30's? I haven't heard that claim before.
Both associations were not really picking form the same pool. The FAI picked some northern born players in the 30's who never played for the IFA. In some cases at least they were playing in the league of Ireland. Apart from the Iberian tour of 1946 when 4 NI players were picked only 2 other northern born players played for both associations - Harry Chatton who did so after moving to play for Shels and Cork and Jackie Brown. Brown played for the IFA before and after his 2 appearances for the FAI in 37.
Relations were extremely frosty for much of the 1930s. Inter-league games stopped in 1930 and didn't restart until 1938. Games between clubs in the 2 associaitions were also banned for most of the 1930's. I'm pretty sure we didn't award caps for the underage meetings for many years afterwards. Although I see some players have retrospectively got caps from the FAI.
The motivation behind the formation of the FAI was to replace the IFA. This is generally understood - for example the FAI state on their webpage that;
"The clubs and associations who attended the meeting voted to establish the Football Association of Ireland to develop and administer the game throughout the 32 Counties of Ireland."
http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=c...222&Itemid=226
Interesting. Thanks. I must read Peter Byrne's early account again tonight. I suspect the history pages are based on his book.
On second thoughts your claim does make sense as Alton United (Belfast) played in and won the FAI Cup in 1923.
The IFA certainly saw itself as the de facto governing body for football on this island up until 1950.
I actually did some research years ago and can't find it but it seemed to indicate during the early 30's that the FAI did not pick players
who played for the IFA. Jimmy Dunne is one who springs to mind who went from 1930-1936 between caps. He was good enough for an
All Ireland team at the time and won the elague and charity shield with Arsenal. There are other examples but I can't find evidence of players
being forced to choose one or the other except of course when games clashed.
Indeed the case of Alton offers further evidence. It was in late 1923 that the FAI was accepted as a member of FIFA on condition that they accepted their jurisdication as being confined to the Irish Free State (26 counties). The FAI became FAIFS and Alton was no longer affiliated to the FAI/FAIFS.
Absolutely but so did the FAI but importantly the IFA had the backing of the Home Nations. No doubting that the Leinster FA was "unhappy" with how the IFA was running things quite some time prior the FAI's establishment. Wider political events eased the establishment of the FAI but didn't motivate it. Rather the FAI sought to replace the IFA as the governing body for the island. However the FAI's establishment wasn't supported by the powers that be i.e. the Home Nations. Therefore the FAI's willingness to change name to the FAIFS and restrict its jurisdiction to 26 counties can be seen as a compromise in its need to gain international recognition and acceptance. A means to an end perhaps?
Fast forwarding in the mid 1930's the FAIFS reverts back to its original name of the FAI and changes the team's competitive name from Irish Free State to Ireland. Presuming the FAIFS honoured the conditions of FIFA membership with regards to player selection, and as you weren't able to find evidence otherwise, it is highly unlikely that the FAIFS capped IFA internationals between 1923 - 1936. However from 1936 onwards the FAI is no longer restricting itself to 26 counties.
The term "Free State" was replaced in 1937 by Dev anyway. I know the FAI changed in 36 but you may be reading too much into that. The name of the state was changing at the time as well.
FIFA would have been very loose as to who could play International football in those days and several players changed sides. Monti and Demaria played in both the 1930 & 1934 World Cup final matches for Argentina and Italy respectively. Outside of the Iberia tour we only played 2 northern born players who also played for the IFA - Harry Chatton in the early 30's who moved here to play for Shels and then one of the Cork clubs. Jackie Brown was the other who still played for NI. Had there been a change in 36 surely more than 1 NI born player also good enough for the IFA side would have made the FAI side. We played a lot more Internationals from 36-39 than NI did including
summer tours of the continent.
I see no evidence of a policy shift in 36 and given that relations improved considerably through 37 & 38 with the resumption of club friendlies and Inter-league games it doesn't seem likely.
There appears to have been imo a policy change for the Iberia tour of 1946 and it appears to have been dropped afterwards.
All very interesting reading. Cheers.
I have read the early chapters of Peter Byrne’s official history (1996) and it contradicts the FAI website in that it makes no claims regarding the FAI trying to run an all island association. Indeed the attempted talks to avoid the split mention an 8 point document from the FAI which is also shared by Malcolm Brodie albeit with a difference,
The broad point of the FAI’s demand was for autonomy in the area of local clubs and local competitions with the IFA controlling 1 national team and all cross border competitions. The IFA refused and the talks broke down.
The Falls League was affiliated to the FAI in 1923 and this allowed Alton United into the cup. Byrne doesn’t give a reason for the affiliation however it is reasonable to assume that nationalism was involved here. However Byrne does not claim that the FAI sought jurisdiction over NI.
Byrne states on page 45 “On breaking away from the IFA in Belfast in 1921 , Dublin had, as its stated mandate the obligation to provide International competition in the part of the island which came under the control of the newly declared Irish Free State” I can’t find any analysis or references by Byrne to the name change in 36.
For the Iberian tour he mentions that previously the FAI had stood alone without the need to use players from north of the border although he mentions exemptions such as Lunn who was with Dundalk at the time. I don’t see a reference to Jackie Brown which is the prewar exception. Byrne says the FAI ignored all previously declared policies in picking 5 NI players (Cochrane withdrew due to fear of flying). He says no explanation was offered and he can find no formal announcement just a couple of paragraphs in the papers. His explanation was that due to the war Dublin felt it didn’t have the resources to tour alone and buried its pride in selecting the northerners.
In page 59 Byrne mentions since 1921 there was an unmistakable element of nationalism in the game south of the border but this was not espoused by a great majority in Merrion Square.
Byrne also states some southern players were willing to continue playing for the IFA after 1950 but the IFA decided to go it alone after that. He doesn’t mention FIFA in his account of the affair.
There was of course a dispute in 1953 over the name “Ireland” which FIFA did adjudicate on. These are sometimes confused.
The FAI website appears to be based on Byrne but with other opinions added. In the absence of a name on who wrote the website articles I’d be inclined to believe the official history which I know was painstakingly researched unlike most books on Irish football.
Just on the 'name' issue, didn't the North's fans also just sing 'Ireland' up until c.1970??
As late as 1978 they used "Ireland" for their programme v Scotland. The agreement from FIFA was that we would use Republic of Ireland and they would use Northern Ireland. However they seemed to have been allowed to just use Ireland for the Home Championship. In both cases tiny "Republic of" and "Northern" were used and large "Ireland".
I can recall in the 70's when the 2 teams on this island were referred to as Ireland and Eire by the mainstream British media.
If that is so, then absence of reference by Byrne to the letter from FIFA general secretary in 1951, which made direct reference to that it was inadmissible to select Eire citizens to play for other associations, appears to be a serious omission. It's not as if there was a ton of FIFA documents to filter through.
At the very least the FIFA executive committee letter deserves a mention and analysis as to its import.
A competent historian would have included it.
Thanks Gary, knew it had been covered before.
Also interested in their use of flags;pal of mine who went to Spain' 82 & Mexico '86, said it was mainly UJ's with the odd North's flag.
Seen 1-2 pics.online that seem to support this, but hardly definitive....
There isn't necessarily a contradictionary in Peter Byrne's account and that on the FAI's website as the exact political borders of the Irish Free State were provisional at the time of the FAI's formation. Indeed NI needed "to opt out" on formation of the Irish Free State.
It is quite clear that the Dublin clubs had grievances with the IFA years prior to the FAI's formation. Although the FAI was formed in the aftermath of a specific event, the actual process of its establishment can be seen as being brought upon over a longer period of time. Given the uncertainty in the political climate at the time, the FAI could not have known for certainty the geographical confines of their potential footballing governance jurisdiction - or indeed know that they would potentially be confined. It seems to me the name switch to the FAIFS and willing to confine itself to the then Irish Free State was something that was latched onto to gain international acceptance and recognition – re: FIFA membership. Obviously this can be open to personal interpretation but the FAI's establishment was motivated by unhappiness as to how the IFA was run rather than political factors, although individuals behind the FAI's formation might have seen these two factors as one and the same.
Not necessarily the most reliable source imo.
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