This would be more appropriate in that case...Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Last edited by BonnieShels; 05/07/2011 at 6:53 PM.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
It's this bit that I think relates to Italian descendants
'Citizens of other countries descended from an ancestor (parent, grandparent, great-grandparent, etc.) born in Italy may have a claim to Italian citizenship by descent.'
Apart from 2nd generation (whose citizenship is automatic), the 3rd and 4th generation have the right to apply for citizenship. They have a blood right to apply for that citizenship but not the citizenship as a birthright.
AFAIA, article 15 applies to 1st and 2nd generation nationals.
Another pretty dumb response, this, to the idea suggested by mystery-man 'EdwardT' that the poster who referred to the piece as neither informed nor well-researched hadn't outlined a rationale for his belief:
Sure, I'm approaching the issue from the perspective of an Ireland fan who supports the right of Irish nationals to play for Ireland, but honest debate on the issue and some form of intellectual engagement with the piece is exactly what I'd love to see if people feel they have valid points to counter those I've made. If there are perceived faults in it, I'd be more than happy to acknowledge and debate them. I'm confident enough in the validity of my own standpoint that I wouldn't feel the need to censor any counter-argument. I didn't even delete that link to that blog about "Prodestan" because, although patent nonsense, I often feel that resorting to such measures as censorship is almost an admission of a suspect personal standpoint. From reading my own piece, there should be no indication that I'd agree with anything in that, so I had nothing to fear as far as my own conscience was concerned, although I did acknowledge the possibility of people lazily associating the two, as, unfortunately, some on OWC decided to do. As a response, I clarified my own position in the comments beneath the piece. And I don't think anyone's said it's the last word either, but, at worst, it's an honest attempt to compile as many elements of this debate of which I'm aware into one solitary piece of prose that is accessible and should make sense if one has the time to digest it, even if there is a hint of bias. But I'm trying to defend the right of Irish nationals to play for their country against insulting and aggressive legal and cultural attack, after all.dont you know that you arent allowed to find any faults in this article promoted on many websites. it is the last word on the rulings and the lad seems to have many fans.
I've been accused of partisanship, but at least I acknowledged every mention of every entity concerned by their official titles. Bar maybe the city of Derry, but you don't realise how difficult even the former was for me!In seriousness though, I didn't even mention the infamous and oft-recycled Neil Lennon booing incident once, because I don't actually think it's remotely relevant to the modern-day situation, nor did I go into the whole thing about the bullets being sent to McCourt and McGinn, because, as far as I know, there's no evidence whatsoever that NI fans had anything to do with those sorry affairs. I think most were pretty forthright in their condemnation anyhow. I haven't even suggested that the likes of Baird, McGinn, McCourt and Clingan have to endure even a hint of sectarian abuse when the play for NI, because the reality is that they've been broadly welcomed by NI fans in Windsor Park. If I was blinded by partisanship, I'd have probably spent half the piece ranting about red herrings and non-issues like the above, but I didn't even once. The crux of the issue comes down to one of national identity - for me, the treatment of nationalists in Windsor Park is irrelevant, whether positive or negative - and I feel the case is a sound one without feeling the need to resort to intentional deception and disingenuousness. I wouldn't support Brazil, Spain or France for the same reason that I have no interest in supporting NI. None of the aforementioned have any relevance to me as an Irish national.
With the likes of Nedum Onuoha and Chinedu Vine in mind, would that be the case even if they acquire it before the age of 18?
Vielen dank, mein Herr. You are too kind, I'm not sure my net ramblings are always evidence of sanity
I think almost all NI fans accept that anyone from there is eligible for the Republic's team given your nationality laws. Responses vary from ignore or grin and bear it, through continuing to argue around details (eg not if they've played for us as adults, please*) and ultimately hostility. It's a shame but I suspect the Hawk is just letting off steam and doesn't realy want to discuss in detail.
As Danny Invincible suggested in the long article, some journos and politicians are deliberately using the issue to stir things more generally. Nelson Mancausla, for example. He's not stupid, just sectarian (and nuts).
* what Phil T and others argued in that open letter to the IFA on OWC, basically. Why is it ludicrous, as Pred claims?
PS the Predator- Hawk spat reminds me of another big bird about to maker her entrance in Europa League round two. Serena (after Williams) has the day job of scaring pigeons away from Seaview's hallowed astroturf, but maybe she'll pounce if anything falls kindly in Fulham's penalty box? Or Runavik's, just possibly...
Last edited by Gather round; 05/07/2011 at 8:27 PM.
Are we talking about the AoNISC letter that was published in the Irish News? There were plenty of factual inaccuracies and falsehoods in that letter.
The full text read as follows (I'll highlight just some of the more dubious claims, hysterical nonsense and factual errors):
Most of it, then.The Carling Cup of Nations (or Celtic Cup) has brought a number of issues relating to the Northern Ireland team, the IFA and the IFA's relationship with the FAI to the fore. While the recent boycott of the tournament by Northern Ireland fans, over their treatment by the IFA, FAI and Irish police, has attracted a good deal of publicity, it should be noted that an informal pre-existing boycott was already in place, with many supporters, including some who have followed the team to South America, the United States, the Caribbean and the farthest corners of Europe, refusing to make the short trip to Dublin to watch our team. The primary reason for this boycott is the increasing selection of Northern Ireland born or capped players by the FAI, despite their already representing Northern Ireland at all levels up to, and now including, full international.
The time has come for the IFA to make a stand against this practice; if it continues the very existence of the association and the international team is endangered. We recognise that this is not a situation of the IFA's making, that FIFA's ruling on player eligibility was challenged by the association, and that strenuous efforts have been made by the IFA, as part of its "Football For All" scheme, to ensure that football in Northern Ireland remains cross-community and teams at all levels are selected on merit alone.
FIFA's ruling has placed our country's team at a disadvantage faced by no other, namely, every single player eligible to play for us can also be selected by the FAI. The FAI's shameless exploitation of this rule to the detriment of Northern Ireland teams, and the public statements of its officials vowing to continue and expand this practice, makes cordial relations between the two associations impossible. Our objection is based on a matter of principle, that the selection of players who have played for Northern Ireland at every level - full international included – by the FAI is unethical, opportunistic and, by accident or design, sectarian, and must cease.
While we object to the precedent that the FIFA ruling, and subsequent CAS judgement, have established, we must stress that we accept that some players from Northern Ireland will choose to represent the Republic of Ireland team. This is, of course, regrettable, but we absolutely and unequivocally respect their choice. To those players considering switching allegiance, however, we say this: please do not accept a call-up from the IFA unless it is your intention to play for Northern Ireland. Your actions let down fans who give you unstinting support, waste the scarce resources of the IFA and, worst of all, deny a cap to someone who genuinely wanted it and would have been proud to accept it. Such expedient behaviour in denying another player the chance to win a cap, the highest honour in international football, is utterly unethical and reflects poorly on those who do it.
As longstanding supporters of the Northern Ireland team we urge the IFA to act upon the following proposal: it must secure a public commitment from the FAI, or a joint statement from both associations to the same effect, that it will no longer select players who have represented Northern Ireland at U19 level and above, regardless of FIFA's rules and regardless of whether or not a senior cap was won in a friendly international. This amounts to, in essence, the reintroduction of the gentleman's agreement which existed for over fifty years and worked to the mutual benefit of both associations.
If the FAI is prepared to make this commitment, the IFA must, without question, reciprocate, and not select players who have previously represented the Republic of Ireland, even if they were born in Northern Ireland; if the FAI refuses and continues to behave in its current unscrupulous and unprincipled way, behaviour which threatens the continued existence of the IFA and Northern Ireland team, then we demand that all co-operation between the two associations at all levels cease.
The forthcoming fixture between the two countries is an ideal opportunity for the associations to bring this matter to an amicable conclusion and, in the name of continued cordial relations, to publicly announce that a binding agreement on player selection has been reached. Such an agreement is in the interests of all concerned as it would strengthen and equalise the relationship between the FAI and IFA and end distractive speculation surrounding players.
If the IFA refuses to pursue this course of action, then it will have declared itself unfit to run football in Northern Ireland. In this event, its senior administrators must resign and be replaced by people who will serve the national team's best interests.
To our team which will take the field in Dublin without our usual vocal support, we are deeply sorry that we cannot be in attendance, but be assured that we are with you in spirit: Play with pride. Play with passion. Play for the shirt.
Hmm, well what else would we expect?
The trouble is when you're just paranoid, things like rationale and logic go out the window!
Can't speak for NB, but as GR says below his own contribution is rarely consistent of anything, besides provoking irritated bemusement.
He's working on his next artistic project with Alex Bruce. Given the season, nothing to do with the naked flame....
You're under-selling yourself there just a bit....
Because FIFA & the CAS Ruling have defined something else.I think almost all NI fans accept that anyone from there is eligible for the Republic's team given your nationality laws. Responses vary from ignore or grin and bear it, through continuing to argue around details (eg not if they've played for us as adults, please*) and ultimately hostility. It's a shame but I suspect the Hawk is just letting off steam and doesn't realy want to discuss in detail.
* what Phil T and others argued in that open letter to the IFA on OWC, basically. Why is it ludicrous, as Pred claims?
Given the machinations of the former and London 2012, just be grateful you still have a team....
You'll have to post up the link I sent through for this to make any great sense??PS the Predator- Hawk spat reminds me of another big bird about to maker her entrance in Europa League round two. Serena (after Williams) has the day job of scaring pigeons away from Seaview's hallowed astroturf, but maybe she'll pounce if anything falls kindly in Fulham's penalty box?
Gone to build The Wickerman.
He was last seen round these parts on the 25th of March. I do hope he comes back as I had left a few things for him to have a think about. (Yes, it's that petty.) I don't recall having seen him lately on OWC lately either, mind.
I like to express my contempt for written documents by burning them. At the very least a forceful serve toward the waste bin.That would imply there's actually some merit to the article to make it worth countering, meanwhile anyone with have a brain could tell for themselves its all ill-informed rambling & treat it with the contempt it deserves by ignoring it
That ignoring lark is awfully apathetic.
To my surprise, my account was activated a few hours ago, so I just left a relatively brief response to the discussion that had been going on: http://taboard.com/forum/index.php?s...post&p=1939722
I don't know about the second chap but according to the info available, Ned is a naturalised British national since he was a kid.
I'd be 99% certain he qualifies for England under art 15 and 16.
Does it matter how he qualifies? There is absolutely no doubt that he can play for England and Nigeria.
It just matters who he plays for first. He can only change to the second association under the terms of article 18.
I think you're on the right track here Danny. The Kernaghan situation was a little different as, under the IFA's qualification rules at the time, he was not eligible to play for Northern Ireland. In this case, it seems that the FAI saw no problem in including him in FAI selections.
While it has been established that there was no "gentleman's agreement" in place there was definitely no clarity around the eligibility of those in the North to represent the FAI between 1946 and the late-90s as you have pointed out. I think its fair to assume that the FAI and the IFA weren't aware of what FIFA's rules allowed in this regard.
We know now that the Good Friday Agreement did not change anything with regard to FIFA's qualification rules but there was a change in the wording which people may have considered to be significant. Under the 1956 Act those born in the six counties after independence were "entitled" to be an Irish citizen but were not "automatically" an Irish citizen. I can only assume that the Northern-born players (e.g. Jennings, O'Neill, Armstrong, Donaghy) were all aware that they could hold Irish citizenship but never believed that they were entitled to play for the FAI. I also believe that the FAI were not aware that these players were eligible for selection. FIFA have clarified the existing rules in much greater detail in recent years.
The Kernaghan situation was probably a pivotal point as when Northern-born players saw the details of his qualification the likes of Ger Crossley asked the question about their own eligibility. I genuinely do not remember any discussion of this issue in the 70s or 80s as the players and the associations were not aware that this option was available to them (even though it seems to have been allowed under the FIFA rules).
"There's man all over for you, blaming on his boots the fault of his feet" - Samuel Beckett, Waiting for Godot
The main reason I'm interested in which article in particular it is under which certain players qualify is because it might help clarify who could actually be potentially eligible to play for us. If fourth-generation Italians are able to represent Italy (not that I'm necessarily saying they can, because both the Camoranesi and Motta examples have proved inconclusive), then we could conclude that article 15 might be more flexible than we might originally have thought as that would be the only article under which such examples possibly could qualify. It could potentially leave open the possibility of fourth-generation Irish nationals being eligible to represent Ireland.
Am I correct in assuming that anyone who assumes a nationality before the age of 18 can qualify for the association of that country? The rules don't specify such, but it would appear to be the case with regard to a lot of Switzerland's current internationals, for example, and I remember CD saying something along those lines earlier in the thread, stating that it was implicit due to the "after reaching the age of 18" clause in article 17.
Vine is a Nigerian-born Irish national. His circumstances are pretty much identical to Onuoha's, except he moved to Ireland rather than England at a young age and was raised here, so I assume, like how Onuoha qualifies to play for England, Vine qualifies to play for Ireland.
I suppose that is another possibility. Perhaps the FAI really just weren't sure of the situation themselves and, even though there was no gentleman's agreement relating to the status of Irish nationals, had accidentally assumed that when FIFA ruled on the two jurisdictions around the 1950s that it had had some implication for the status of Irish nationals-to-be born in the IFA's jurisdiction. Who knows? Of course, it couldn't have had any future implications for them because even the 1946 dictat issued by Ivo Schricker outlined how the eligibility criterion was one reliant on players being "subjects of the country they represent".
I wonder would anyone have any contacts in the FAI from whom they could try and get an answer on this, because it is a peculiar one to my mind. I've e-mailed the FAI twice in recent times with questions relating to the eligibility issue, and Adam Barton's eligibility in particular, but didn't have much luck with a response so I dunno if there's much point going that route again.
Kernaghan would have been eligible for NI if it hadn't been for an internal agreement between the British associations not to select players via a grand-parental link. Perhaps, once the FAI saw the IFA could have no objection to his selection, they were happy to investigate and approach him. As you suggest, possibly this led to some Eureka moment within the FAI and more and more players striking upon the realisation that they were, in fact, eligible to play for Ireland. Possibly, the FAI had even feared that if they started inviting northern Irish nationals into their squads prior to the years leading up to the Good Friday Agreement, that the IFA would complain and FIFA would intervene, deem Irish nationality law irredentist and penalise the association. Although, it's not as if there's ever been an indication that FIFA would indeed have been prepared to intervene in such a situation. The federation, for example, seems content enough with the situation regarding extra-territorial Turkish citizenship for Northern Cypriots despite recognising the whole island of Cyprus as the 'de jure' territory of the Cyprus Football Association. FIFA never had any problem whatsoever with Muzzy Izzet or Kâzım Kâzım representing Turkey despite their Cypriot roots. I think your last paragraph is spot on. Even if the FAI were reluctant to cause a stir with the IFA, it would have been difficult for them to turn away Irish nationals willing to declare for them once a realisation set in.
Not necessarily. The FAI sought to make players born within its jurisdictation ineligible to represent the IFA "for international purposes" (letter to FIFA 1946). What constituted the FAI's and the IFA's jurisdictation wasn't clearly defined before FIFA's intervention in 1953. For example the IFA selected players on an All-Ireland basis during this time period (1946 - 1953). However FIFA did state to the FAI in 1946 that (for international purposes) "players must be subjects of the country they represent" and "players born in the area of your jurisdiction" could not represent the IFA.
The intervention of FIFA in 1953 divided the existing player pool based on place of birth and the political border on the island. This most likely mirrored the FAI's understanding of player eligibility at the time. The wording of the 1946 letter to FIFA is "players born within the area of jurisdiction".
See above comments. The FAI's understanding of eligibility was most likely based on "place of birth" (1946 FIFA letter) an understanding reinforced by the 1953 FIFA intervention which divided the island's existing playing pool based on place of birth.
Player selection to the FAI's teams at the time wasn't the most efficient. Up until the 1970's players were selected for the FAI teams by a 5 man selection committee. The make-up of the committee changed on a regular basis. Johnny Giles states in his book his disillusion with this selection process as there was no consistency in player selection and questions their abilities/ knowledge to pick the best players. If you consider how this selection committee worked, it is highly unlikely that there was any movement to evolve the understanding of Irish player eligibility beyond "place of birth" as set forth by FIFA's intervention in 1953 given the inefficiencies of the selection process and the constant change in the make-up of the selection committee.
I no longer post on OWC, and haven't done so for several months.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Is that because you would disagree with some of your fellow fans on there?
And do they know/have they noticed? Are you likely to return?
1. No.
2. I couldn't give two flying ones whether they know/have noticed or not.
3. Never say never.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Fair enough, but your answer to 1. puzzles me. But your prerogative.
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