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Thread: Eligibility Rules, Okay

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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    Under Irish law, citizenship and nationality are synonomus.
    Under Fifa statutes, citizenship and nationality are synonomus.

    If it's interpreted as agressive to tell you to stop with your nonsense re citizenship and nationality, then so be it.
    Citensenship and nationality are not synonymous by definition but if they are in fifa then post that clarrifcation documnt from fifa and all will be clear.

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    First Team The Fly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    Under Irish law, citizenship and nationality are synonomus.
    Under Fifa statutes, citizenship and nationality are synonomus.

    If it's interpreted as agressive to tell you to stop with your nonsense re citizenship and nationality, then so be it.
    I knew someone would bite at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    But as you can see from the FIFA document, FIFA rely on passports as evidence of nationality. I think it's therefore safe to assume that when FIFA use the term "nationality", they're referring to citizenship.



    That's simply not the case. The FIFA document asks for passports as evidence of nationality. Having a mother or grandparents of a certain nationality isn't evidence of nationality.



    But he's not an Irish national from birth in law, so the Department of Foreign Affairs would be unable to supply such confirmation. He only became an Irish national in law upon the date of his birth being registered on the Foreign Births Register.



    But they do ask for passports, because it is about citizenship. The section you've quoted in relation to documentary evidence from a governmental authority isn't to prove citizenship. A passport (or other ID) is required to prove that and it is dealt with in a separate section of that document. The section you've quoted relates to documentary confirmation of when the player became an Irish citizen or national.



    The document states that the FAI must send to FIFA "[a] recently issued statement dated and signed by the player in which he confirms that he understands the impact of such a change and that he is aware that such a change, if granted, is of a definite nature and irreversible". This implies that is a switch is not granted, then the player has not used up his option to switch once.



    He can still switch to Sweden. And hasn't his request to switch to Ireland already been rejected? Is that not how this issue arose? The player himself spoke of a complication with the paperwork. As I understand it, the FAI are now liaising with FIFA to try and find a way around their rejection of his request.



    According to the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs, she's an Irish national under Irish law. As geysir quoted the Department above: "Being an Irish citizen means that you are formally recognised as a national of Ireland and a citizen of the European Union."
    It still comes down to using nationality and citensenship interchangably and my belief that they are separate entities. All your points are correct about citensenship but as I have said it is not citensenship they ask fhim to have at the time he played for another country in this case Luxembourg. It is an ability to show he had another nationality in this case to be Irish.

    So while he has to provide a passport as proof of citensenship when he is switching(now) the section which deals with him needing to show he had Irish nationality when he played for Luxembourg as a 16 year old does not stipulate a requirement for a passport or indeed citensenship but instead that vague requirement for a document from a government department to say he had Irish nationality . Why would this section simply not say he needed a passport if this was actually required especially when it is stipulated that a passport is required for him to make the switch? He had Irish nationality at 16 through his grandparent and he simply needed to seek citizenship which was his right if he so wished due to his Irish nationality.

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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liamoo11 View Post
    Citensenship and nationality are not synonymous by definition but if they are in fifa then post that clarrifcation documnt from fifa and all will be clear.
    They may not be synonymous by your definition (which, if I interpret correctly, sees citizenship as a strictly legal status, whereas sees nationality more so as an inherited identity not legally defined), but FIFA (and the Irish government) regard them as one and the same for legal purposes. A passport is evidence of citizenship (as we all understand that word to mean) and FIFA state that they require a passport (or another form of ID) as evidence of nationality, so that implies that they regard nationality to mean the same as what you understand citizenship to mean.

    The FIFA document has already been posted here. Here's the link again: https://resources.fifa.com/mm/docume...on_neutral.pdf



    For Johansson to switch, according to the terms of that document, the FAI must supply, amongst other things, a copy of Johansson's passport (which must be valid at the time the request for a change of association is submitted) evidencing his nationality of Luxembourg as well as a copy of Johansson's passport or ID evidencing his Irish nationality. Further to this, separate documentation is required to confirm when he became an Irish national. FIFA asks for documentary evidence (such as a confirmation issued by the Irish government or any other official document) that, at the time of Johansson's first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for Luxembourg, he already had Irish nationality.

    The Irish government will not be able to confirm that Johansson was an Irish national from birth, because the lad wasn't an Irish national from birth under Irish nationality law. Being entitled to become an Irish citizen or national isn't the same thing as actually being one. Simply because you have a grandparent of Irish nationality who was born in Ireland and a parent of Irish nationality, but who was born outside of Ireland, it doesn't mean you're a legal Irish national. There is nothing in Irish law to support your interpretation that Johansson has been an Irish national as of birth. That's just your own personal view of his national status in respect of his circumstances, but it's not based on any legal evidence. If you think there is evidence that he was an Irish national from birth, feel free to supply that or some official Irish governmental document or text to back up your interpretation in respect of his supposed inheriting of Irish nationality from birth.

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    My guess is that it will end up with CAS.

    A system which allows a 15 year old kid to be ineligible on the basis of whether or not his parents registered his birth on his behalf is intrinsically flawed and the system has done him a great disservice. The Luxembourg FA are so terribly culpable if they misled him and his family as to the consequences of playing that match. The wording could easily be changed, so as not to unfairly impact individuals like him. Genuinely, if his parents had registered his birth, nothing really would have changed about the situation. He's still a child who considers himself Irish, born to an irish mother, entitled to be an irish citizen

    Now, he has an Irish passport, he wants to play for Ireland above any other country and his entire career will be forever changed if he's refused the opportunity.

    Imagine if Jason McAteer or Jon Walters or Kevin Kilbane were denied the opportunity to play for Ireland (I know it's different) - but imagine if that part of their career was erased. That's the opportunity that he is losing out on.

    Hopefully between the FAI and FIFA they can workaround it. Or they could propose an amendment to the regulations in terms of wording where it says 'entitlement to nationality' or something to that effect.

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  7. #7586
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    They may not be synonymous by your definition (which, if I interpret correctly, sees citizenship as a strictly legal status, whereas sees nationality more so as an inherited identity not legally defined), but FIFA (and the Irish government) regard them as one and the same for legal purposes. A passport is evidence of citizenship (as we all understand that word to mean) and FIFA state that they require a passport (or another form of ID) as evidence of nationality, so that implies that they regard nationality to mean the same as what you understand citizenship to mean.

    The FIFA document has already been posted here. Here's the link again: https://resources.fifa.com/mm/docume...on_neutral.pdf



    For Johansson to switch, according to the terms of that document, the FAI must supply, amongst other things, a copy of Johansson's passport (which must be valid at the time the request for a change of association is submitted) evidencing his nationality of Luxembourg as well as a copy of Johansson's passport or ID evidencing his Irish nationality. Further to this, separate documentation is required to confirm when he became an Irish national. FIFA asks for documentary evidence (such as a confirmation issued by the Irish government or any other official document) that, at the time of Johansson's first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for Luxembourg, he already had Irish nationality.

    The Irish government will not be able to confirm that Johansson was an Irish national from birth, because the lad wasn't an Irish national from birth under Irish nationality law. Being entitled to become an Irish citizen or national isn't the same thing as actually being one. Simply because you have a grandparent of Irish nationality who was born in Ireland and a parent of Irish nationality, but who was born outside of Ireland, it doesn't mean you're a legal Irish national. There is nothing in Irish law to support your interpretation that Johansson has been an Irish national as of birth. That's just your own personal view of his national status in respect of his circumstances, but it's not based on any legal evidence. If you think there is evidence that he was an Irish national from birth, feel free to supply that or some official Irish governmental document or text to back up your interpretation in respect of his supposed inheriting of Irish nationality from birth.
    Thanks. The first section you have posted deals with what he needs to do when he is switching as in now where he has to supply his passport which will be no difficulty so that's not the issue. This section clearly states a passport is required when you make the switch

    the last section about the requirements he needed to meet when he first played competitively for Luxembourg does not as I have repeatedly said ask for a passport or citizenship but merely a letter from a government department. There is a clear distinction in the documentory requirements for these 2 sections.

    I have yet to see the fifa clarrification that citensenship and nationality are synonymous but if you have ot feel free to post it up as I have asked geyser to do

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    Capped Player DannyInvincible's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by liamoo11 View Post
    Thanks. The first section you have posted deals with what he needs to do when he is switching as in now where he has to supply his passport which will be no difficulty so that's not the issue. This section clearly states a passport is required when you make the switch

    the last section about the requirements he needed to meet when he first played competitively for Luxembourg does not as I have repeatedly said ask for a passport or citizenship but merely a letter from a government department. There is a clear distinction in the documentory requirements for these 2 sections.

    I have yet to see the fifa clarrification that citensenship and nationality are synonymous but if you have ot feel free to post it up as I have asked geyser to do
    What would the letter from the Irish government say though, since Johansson wasn't an Irish national in law when he first played for Luxembourg? Your version of Irish nationality has no meaning or significance, as far as Irish nationality law is concerned. It's just your own personal interpretation of the term or concept of "Irish nationality".

    For a rule or regulation to be effective, it needs to be clear and concrete. Relying on ambiguous concepts such as your version of "nationality" just wouldn't enable the rules we're concerned with here to function. FIFA rely on that which can be legally defined, so I think it's fair to assume that when FIFA ask for passports (which we all agree legally prove citizenship) in order to legally prove what they regard as nationality, then they regard the two - citizenship and nationality - as synonymous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyInvincible View Post
    What would the letter from the Irish government say though, since Johansson wasn't an Irish national in law when he first played for Luxembourg? Your version of Irish nationality has no meaning or significance, as far as Irish nationality law is concerned. It's just your own personal interpretation of the term or concept of "Irish nationality".

    For a rule or regulation to be effective, it needs to be clear and concrete. Relying on ambiguous concepts such as your version of "nationality" just wouldn't enable the rules we're concerned with here to function. FIFA rely on that which can be legally defined, so I think it's fair to assume that when FIFA ask for passports (which we all agree legally prove citizenship) in order to legally prove what they regard as nationality, then they regard the two - citizenship and nationality - as synonymous.
    I think he's just referring to the difference in dictionary definition that exists between the two terms. Whilst they're closely related and often used inter-changeably; they're not wholly synonymous.
    Last edited by The Fly; 10/08/2019 at 4:03 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fly View Post
    I think he's just referring to the difference in dictionary definition that exists between the two in terms. Whilst they're closely related and often used inter-changeably; they're not wholly synonymous.
    Sure, I understand that they can mean different things, but I think it's pretty clear (from the fact that FIFA ask for a passport to prove nationality) that FIFA regard them as one and the same. I mean, how could FIFA rely on an ambiguous concept such as the definition of "nationality" that liamoo11 employs when it's not legally-defined or evidenced?

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    Looks like the North are going with Tommy Wright as their new manager. After Michael O'Neill created a more welcoming environment for those of Catholic/Nationalist backgrounds, it will be interesting to see if UDR-supporter Wright can keep up that work: https://twitter.com/ChuckReboots/sta...191066112?s=19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olé Olé View Post
    Looks like the North are going with Tommy Wright as their new manager. After Michael O'Neill created a more welcoming environment for those of Catholic/Nationalist backgrounds, it will be interesting to see if UDR-supporter Wright can keep up that work: https://twitter.com/ChuckReboots/sta...191066112?s=19
    Very controversial choice. Why would any Catholic / Nationalist / Republican would want to play for him ?

    Especially when they have an Alternative.

    Will the IFA really de daft enough to give that fella the job ? ? ?

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    Former Newcastle player could be set for Northern Ireland job https://the42.ie/5090424

    Subsequent to the 42 posting this I have read that his leaving St. Johnstone was a result of a disagreement with the board and less to do with the NI job. The Times reckon Steve Robinson and Ian Baraclough are ahead of him in the reckoning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanfhear View Post
    Very controversial choice. Why would any Catholic / Nationalist / Republican would want to play for him ?
    Why don't you ask eg Joe Shaughnessy, Graham Cummings, David McMillan, Patrick Cregg or Tim Clancy? (Those being the ROI players he signed for St.Johnstone)

    Or Alan Maybury, who he took on as Assistant Coach a couple of years back.

    Or the dozens of CNR players he coached/managed previously eg at Limavady, Ballymena and Distillery, or with NI's under-age teams?

    Or if those are too far from your neck of the woods, you could ask any of the players he coached at Shamrock Rovers.

    You know, when he was appointed by his good friend and former teammate, Michael O'Neill...


    [Btw, you don't need to worry, this is just a fleeting visit. In these testing times, we all have to take out football fix where we can get it. ]

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  16. #7594
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    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    Why don't you ask eg Joe Shaughnessy, Graham Cummings, David McMillan, Patrick Cregg or Tim Clancy? (Those being the ROI players he signed for St.Johnstone)

    Or Alan Maybury, who he took on as Assistant Coach a couple of years back.

    Or the dozens of CNR players he coached/managed previously eg at Limavady, Ballymena and Distillery, or with NI's under-age teams?

    Or if those are too far from your neck of the woods, you could ask any of the players he coached at Shamrock Rovers.

    You know, when he was appointed by his good friend and former teammate, Michael O'Neill...


    [Btw, you don't need to worry, this is just a fleeting visit. In these testing times, we all have to take out football fix where we can get it. ]
    Thats not the same as playing for Northern Ireland with him as manager , Not by a Long Shot ! ! !

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanfhear View Post
    Thats not the same as playing for Northern Ireland with him as manager , Not by a Long Shot ! ! !
    Maybe not in your little world which, like that of far too many people in Ireland, judges people not by what they say and do, but by how others label them.

    For the rest of us however, if good people like Michael O'Neill trust him to do a good job, then that should be good enough.

    Besides which, he has already been the NI goalkeeping coach, plus had a spell as a Youth Development Officer for the IFA, and no-one ever complained.

    Or even bothered to make up a complaint....

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    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    Maybe not in your little world which, like that of far too many people in Ireland, judges people not by what they say and do, but by how others label them.

    For the rest of us however, if good people like Michael O'Neill trust him to do a good job, then that should be good enough.

    Besides which, he has already been the NI goalkeeping coach, plus had a spell as a Youth Development Officer for the IFA, and no-one ever complained.

    Or even bothered to make up a complaint....
    The Proof of the Pudding will be in the Eating of the Pudding. If he gets the job then we will see ! !

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    Yes. It is just Ireland where far too many people are judged by how others are labelled.

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    Shhh, anyone? Is he gone yet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olé Olé View Post
    Former Newcastle player could be set for Northern Ireland job https://the42.ie/5090424

    Subsequent to the 42 posting this I have read that his leaving St. Johnstone was a result of a disagreement with the board and less to do with the NI job. The Times reckon Steve Robinson and Ian Baraclough are ahead of him in the reckoning.
    They'd be mad to overlook Baraclough or Robinson for Wright, in my opinion. Even Shiels could be a good choice.

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    Yeah, I'd have thought Robinson would be nailed on for it.

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