Eligibility Rules, Okay

[liamoo11]

Legally-speaking, what's the proof Johansson has been an Irish national from birth though? As outlined in the FIFA document that geysir quoted and that I've linked to in the last post, passports are used and must be supplied by associations as evidence of nationality. In Irish law, Johansson has only been an Irish citizen since the date his birth was registered on the Foreign Births Register.

That's the whole point and the reason this is a non issue. The term used is nationality not citensenship. We are interchanging the words as if they mean the same thing but they dont.

Citensenship exists within the broader church of nationality. All the fifa rules ask for is evidence of nationality which in this case is his mum and grandparents and the fact that at any point in his life up to the day he died he can get an Irish passport . So he 100 per cent passes the nationality test.

The argument that he wasn't registered as an Irish citizen and had no passport at the age of 16 when he played for Luxembourg is irrelevant to the requirement to show irish nationality as at the age of 16 he had an Irish mum and Irish grandparents. It would be different and more difficult if the rules said citensenship instead of nationality but they dont.

Even on a practical basis why would a 16 year old have 3 passports or have gone to the bother to realise that you need to register for your citensenship in Ireland it would be totally unjust and clearly this is the reason the rule does not say citensenship.

So all he needs to prove nationality and the lifelong entitlement in Irish law to gain citensenship and then a passport is ne of his grandparents birthcerts(let's not even bother bringing his mum into it for simplicity).

[liamoo11]

'Documentary evidence such as a confirmation issued by the relevant governmental authority or any other official document) that at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competion[/B]tion for the Association that the player no longer wishes to represent (England), he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he now wishes to play (Ireland).'[/QUOTE]




This section is key. Basically fifa have made it as vague as possible on purpose yet crystal clear from our point of view.



The fai simply need to provide a letter from the department of foreign affairs outlining the requirements for Irish nationality and subsequent citensenship and passport provision and showing how Ryan meets all these requirements and always has since birth. This will be the official document the fifa rules reference above.


If fifa wanted this to be about citensenship and not nationality they would have used the term citensenship and simply stated that a passport was the only documentation which would be acceptable but they have clearly not done this. They have gone out of their way to avoid using citensenship and passports specifically for these situations. Its us and the Irish media who are introducing the concept of citensenship and passports not fifa. This is a simple fishing expedition by the luxemburgers

[SkStu]

That does seem quite clear cut on the face of it. So why does it have to go through this kind of process? Is it because Luxembourg have asked for a ruling?

Anyone know how long it might take for FIFA to issue a decision?

[geysir]

I see those passages are from this FIFA document: https://resources.fifa.com/mm/docume...on_neutral.pdf

The FA would have been required to submit the evidence that Robinson had played for their under-age teams in competitive fixtures. That's not the FAI's responsibility, so hardly the FAI's fault if FIFA missed that aspect of Robinson's transfer case.

Did the FAI not simply have to provide evidence of Robinson's Irish citizenship and the date of acquisition, or are you suggesting the FAI may have omitted information regarding the date, with FIFA then possibly assuming incorrectly that Robinson was an Irish citizen from birth?

Edit: Sorry, had skimmed through the document at first, but I now see that it would indeed have been the FAI's responsibility to first obtain the information about Robinson's caps for England from the FA and then submit the information to FIFA.

The intro text on the FAQ pdf is a bit dodgy, so I'll let you off with that
Yes indeed it's the FAI who have to gather all the evidence from the English FA and submit it to FIFA.

Someone did not do their job and if you had to choose whether it was FIFA or the FAI? I don't like those odds.

[geysir]

The key line their is the last one " had the nationality of .." the term nationality is far broader than passport holder. Johanson has Irish nationality since he was born getting a passport is merely a formality given his mum and grandparents. Nationality is going to be argued to be broader than mere legal citensenship that's why it is in the wording and citensenship isn't. I can see no way his switch wont be granted. The key here is the use of the word nationality and not citizenship in the regulations. They are in no way the same thing

Neither Ryan nor Callum had Irish nationality at the time they were capped at international competitive level for Lux/England. They were both entitled to apply for it due to the Irish grandparent connection but until that application is accepted by the Irish Gov dept, they are not regarded as Irish nationals.
Both would have to have an Irish parent in order to have had automatic irish nationality

Ryan had Swedish nationality automatically at birth by dint of his Swedish father therefore he could switch to Sweden.

[Olé Olé]

Maybe this has been covered by Ryan's mother grew up in Ireland. Surely she had Irish nationality too? Would her qualifying through residency not have the same impact as through birth? Could be an ignorant question but I thought the two would be equal.

[liamoo11]

Neither Ryan nor Callum had Irish nationality at the time they were capped at international competitive level for Lux/England. They were both entitled to apply for it due to the Irish grandparent connection but until that application is accepted by the Irish Gov dept, they are not regarded as Irish nationals.
Both would have to have an Irish parent in order to have had automatic irish nationality

Ryan had Swedish nationality automatically at birth by dint of his Swedish father therefore he could switch to Sweden.

. You are confusing citensenship with nationality. Ryan did not have citensenship as the paperwork exercise of registration had not happened but he did have nationality as he has an Irish grandparent.

The mistake here is bringing citensenship into the conversation when fifa only speak of nationality. Citensenship is just a narrow legal component of nationality . If fifa wanted citensenship and passports the laws would say citensenship and passports not nationality and proof of nationality as they do.

Ryan automatically had Irish nationality at birth just as you say he had swedish nationality. So he could switch to either. He cant now though because he has submitted his request to switch to us so there is no going back

[Diggs246]

. You are confusing citensenship with nationality. Ryan did not have citensenship as the paperwork exercise of registration had not happened but he did have nationality as he has an Irish grandparent.

The mistake here is bringing citensenship into the conversation when fifa only speak of nationality. Citensenship is just a narrow legal component of nationality . If fifa wanted citensenship and passports the laws would say citensenship and passports not nationality and proof of nationality as they do.

Ryan automatically had Irish nationality at birth just as you say he had swedish nationality. So he could switch to either. He cant now though because he has submitted his request to switch to us so there is no going back

Surely if his application is rejected he could then play for Sweden?

[liamoo11]

Surely if his application is rejected he could then play for Sweden?

I had meant that he cant withdraw his application to switch to us and say he wants to switch to Sweden that ship has sailed. I have no idea if he could switch into Sweden if the Ireland switch was rejected (it wont be)

[geysir]

. You are confusing citensenship with nationality. Ryan did not have citensenship as the paperwork exercise of registration had not happened but he did have nationality as he has an Irish grandparent.

The mistake here is bringing citensenship into the conversation when fifa only speak of nationality. Citensenship is just a narrow legal component of nationality . If fifa wanted citensenship and passports the laws would say citensenship and passports not nationality and proof of nationality as they do.

Ryan automatically had Irish nationality at birth just as you say he had swedish nationality. So he could switch to either. He cant now though because he has submitted his request to switch to us so there is no going back

You are making up stuff, are thoroughly confused and are confusing others, please stop and go and inform yorself about nationality and citizenship.

'Being an Irish citizen means that you are formally recognised as a national of Ireland and a citizen of the European Union.'

Simply having the right to apply for citizenship due to an Irish grandparent does not automatically endow Irish nationality.
Ryan and Callum both had to have their foreign births registered, then apply for Irish citizenship in order to be recognised an Irish national.

[geysir]

Maybe this has been covered by Ryan's mother grew up in Ireland. Surely she had Irish nationality too? Would her qualifying through residency not have the same impact as through birth? Could be an ignorant question but I thought the two would be equal.

Thats a good question, not ignorant at all.
Ryan's birth falls into the catagory of a foreign birth, one who has an irish born grandmother.
It does not change things that his mother lived in Ireland for some years.
Ryan's mother was born on foreign soil, as was Ryan.
Ryan has to have his foreign birth registered before applying for citizenship.

My children, born outside ireland were Irish citizens automatically and have activated that right, they did not have to have their foreign birth registered before say getting their Irish passport.
But their children, if born outside ireland, will be regarded as children with an irish born grandparent, born to Irish citizens who were born on foreign soil.
Their foreign birth will have to be registered before applying for citizenship which allows them to apply for a irish passport and be deemed an irish national.

I think Stutts had some direct experience of the nuisance value of a foreign birth, however coincidental.

[liamoo11]

You are making up stuff, are thoroughly confused and are confusing others, please stop and go and inform yorself about nationality and citizenship.

'Being an Irish citizen means that you are formally recognised as a national of Ireland and a citizen of the European Union.'

Simply having the right to apply for citizenship due to an Irish grandparent does not automatically endow Irish nationality.
Ryan and Callum both had to have their foreign births registered, then apply for Irish citizenship in order to be recognised an Irish national.

I'm not sure why you would think I am making up stuff to be honest or what the aggressive attitude is all about.Im no expert on nationality but i know it's not the same as citensenship which is much narrower legal concept while nationality is a broader identity construct.

You keep using the word citensenship which is not used by fifa at all so why are you bringing it onto the conversation? You are giving people the impression that fifa have simply used the term nationality accidentally when they really mean citensenship yet you have not shown any justification for that.

Even the helpful definition you provided above for citensenship proves the point citensenship simply formalises nationality. Ryan had nationality from birth that citensenship registrar simply formalises the situation to allow him be granted his citizenship and passport as is his right(its not based on anything other than his grandparent was born in Ireland, it's not a process or a decision in any way its simply a matter of fact on e you have the Irish grandparent).

He does not need to apply for his nationality he has that at birth he only needs to apply for his citensenship but fifa laws ask for nationality not citensenship

[Diggs246]

Yep my wife is an Irish citizen, but her nationality is korean

[tetsujin1979]

Let's keep this professional gentlemen.

[The Fly]

Yep my wife is an Irish citizen, but her nationality is korean

Another North v South discussion is just what this thread needs.

[liamoo11]

Yep my wife is an Irish citizen, but her nationality is korean

Would she get a game for Korea!

[Diggs246]

Would she get a game for Korea!

According to FIFA ...yes, she qualifies through birth, birth of parents and birth of grandparents. !

[DannyInvincible]

That's the whole point and the reason this is a non issue. The term used is nationality not citensenship. We are interchanging the words as if they mean the same thing but they dont.

But as you can see from the FIFA document, FIFA rely on passports as evidence of nationality. I think it's therefore safe to assume that when FIFA use the term "nationality", they're referring to citizenship.

All the fifa rules ask for is evidence of nationality which in this case is his mum and grandparents and the fact that at any point in his life up to the day he died he can get an Irish passport . So he 100 per cent passes the nationality test.

That's simply not the case. The FIFA document asks for passports as evidence of nationality. Having a mother or grandparents of a certain nationality isn't evidence of nationality.

'Documentary evidence such as a confirmation issued by the relevant governmental authority or any other official document) that at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competion[/B]tion for the Association that the player no longer wishes to represent (England), he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he now wishes to play (Ireland).'




This section is key. Basically fifa have made it as vague as possible on purpose yet crystal clear from our point of view.



The fai simply need to provide a letter from the department of foreign affairs outlining the requirements for Irish nationality and subsequent citensenship and passport provision and showing how Ryan meets all these requirements and always has since birth. This will be the official document the fifa rules reference above.

But he's not an Irish national from birth in law, so the Department of Foreign Affairs would be unable to supply such confirmation. He only became an Irish national in law upon the date of his birth being registered on the Foreign Births Register.

If fifa wanted this to be about citensenship and not nationality they would have used the term citensenship and simply stated that a passport was the only documentation which would be acceptable but they have clearly not done this. They have gone out of their way to avoid using citensenship and passports specifically for these situations. Its us and the Irish media who are introducing the concept of citensenship and passports not fifa. This is a simple fishing expedition by the luxemburgers

But they do ask for passports, because it is about citizenship. The section you've quoted in relation to documentary evidence from a governmental authority isn't to prove citizenship. A passport (or other ID) is required to prove that and it is dealt with in a separate section of that document. The section you've quoted relates to documentary confirmation of when the player became an Irish citizen or national.

]Ryan automatically had Irish nationality at birth just as you say he had swedish nationality. So he could switch to either. He cant now though because he has submitted his request to switch to us so there is no going back

The document states that the FAI must send to FIFA "[a] recently issued statement dated and signed by the player in which he confirms that he understands the impact of such a change and that he is aware that such a change, if granted, is of a definite nature and irreversible". This implies that is a switch is not granted, then the player has not used up his option to switch once.

I had meant that he cant withdraw his application to switch to us and say he wants to switch to Sweden that ship has sailed. I have no idea if he could switch into Sweden if the Ireland switch was rejected (it wont be)

He can still switch to Sweden. And hasn't his request to switch to Ireland already been rejected? Is that not how this issue arose? The player himself spoke of a complication with the paperwork. As I understand it, the FAI are now liaising with FIFA to try and find a way around their rejection of his request.

Yep my wife is an Irish citizen, but her nationality is korean

According to the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs, she's an Irish national under Irish law. As geysir quoted the Department above: "Being an Irish citizen means that you are formally recognised as a national of Ireland and a citizen of the European Union."

[geysir]

I'm not sure why you would think I am making up stuff to be honest or what the aggressive attitude is all about.Im no expert on nationality but i know it's not the same as citensenship which is much narrower legal concept while nationality is a broader identity construct.

You keep using the word citensenship which is not used by fifa at all so why are you bringing it onto the conversation? You are giving people the impression that fifa have simply used the term nationality accidentally when they really mean citensenship yet you have not shown any justification for that.

Even the helpful definition you provided above for citensenship proves the point citensenship simply formalises nationality. Ryan had nationality from birth that citensenship registrar simply formalises the situation to allow him be granted his citizenship and passport as is his right(its not based on anything other than his grandparent was born in Ireland, it's not a process or a decision in any way its simply a matter of fact on e you have the Irish grandparent).

He does not need to apply for his nationality he has that at birth he only needs to apply for his citensenship but fifa laws ask for nationality not citensenship

Under Irish law, citizenship and nationality are synonomus.
Under Fifa statutes, citizenship and nationality are synonomus.

If it's interpreted as agressive to tell you to stop with your nonsense re citizenship and nationality, then so be it.

[geysir]

I wouldn't weep so much for Ryan, he doesn't really care who he plays for. Give me Paul Green any day (from Dover to Dun Laoghaire).

He did an interview with a Swedish newspaper

– Alltså, jag skulle älska att spela för Sverige. Det är ett av länderna jag kommer från, jag har massa släkt där och jag är ofta på västkusten under somrarna. Så… jag kommer inte vara ledsen om jag inte kan spela för Irland. Det är win-win för mig.

Which google translates to , 'I would love to play for Sweden I won't be sorry if I can't play for Ireland, it's a win win for me'.