Anyone know what happened to the formerly resident Danny Invincible?
He had the best grasp on these issues.
Still available on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DanielCollins85?s=09Originally Posted by The Fly
I genuinely believe this wasn't an issue because the FAI and the FA shared an interpretation of the rule and it wouldn't have been a problem except the Luxembourg FA made an issue out of it. If I were the FAI, I would be ensuring that every young player from Barry to Delap to Egan-Riley has an irish passport sorted now before they play U17 games - and whoever else is eligible that they know about. No point shutting doors on 16 year olds one way or another.
The likes of Crowley and Robinson are both guys who fall foul of this rule if they hadn't sorted out citizenship by U17 and if any of McGoldrick, O'Dowda, Christie or Westwood had received an u17, 19 or 21 call-up then they'd be in the same boat...
Last edited by elatedscum; 02/08/2019 at 6:28 PM.
Even if he has changed his mind he will be stuck to us as he has submitted his change of allegiance isn't that the rule its once you submit the paperwork?
But the problem is he hasn't submitted it as he doesn't have to at this stage in his underage career.
As far as I know he is still eligible for us, Luxembourg and Sweden.
Good point. Danny where are u?
But sure he must have submitted it how is their a problem otherwise how would fifa know he didn't have a passport if he did not send them the paperwork why would they be looking into it?
So foot.ie's former writer in residence is now resident on twitter.
Last edited by The Fly; 03/08/2019 at 8:34 PM.
Apparently he is anti-imperialist.So foot.ie's former writer in residence is now resident on twitter.
I wonder does he know obi wan kenobi
Good point.
Hey, folks. My Foot.ie senses were tingling.Been on a bit of a hiatus, but hope you're all well.
I've no great insight into the Johansson situation - as it admittedly puzzles me (when compared to cases of other dual nationals that have switched to us) - so I can only give my interpretation and a speculative view as to why things might be the way they are and as to how things might transpire.
My understanding is that Johansson is an Irish citizen and holds an Irish passport. He has been entitled to become an Irish national since his birth, but only acquired it after being registered on the Foreign Births Register, as it was obtained via descent through maternal grandparentage born in Ireland (after he represented Luxembourg at under-age level competitively). I believe the grandparental connection to be to Mullingar, for what it's worth, while his mother was herself born in London. Jonhansson has been an Irish citizen from the date of registration; registration does not have a retroactive effect to his date of birth.
There's further information on the acquiring of Irish citizenship via descent here that will confirm what I say about it above: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...nt.html#l091af
Holding the nationality of the country you wish to play for is obviously the primary criteria any aspiring international player must satisfy. However, there are additional criteria within FIFA's Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes that must also be satisfied in cases where a player is acquiring a new nationality to play for a country, where a player wishes to play for a team that shares nationality with another team (such as the four British associations) or where a player wishes to switch association.
Under a literal or strict reading of article 8.1(a) then, Johansson isn't eligible to play for the FAI.
This isn't a "loophole", as has been reported in some media, as if to suggest it exists due to some oversight or something on the part of a careless FIFA. It's a clearly-worded rule with a genuine and serious purpose (mainly, it is to safeguard the game against footballers with no real or genuine connection to a particular country being granted citizenship by that country for purely footballing benefits for that country) and has been in existence for quite some time. It's the rule which would have rendered Mikel Arteta, for example, ineligible from playing for England, since he would not have possessed British nationality at the time of representing Spain competitively at under-age level.
Now, this is where things get interesting. If media articles I've read about Callum Robinson (including quotes from the player himself) are accurate, Robinson acquired his Irish citizenship (also through a grandparent born in Ireland) and passport after having competitively played for England at various under-age levels, yet FIFA ratified his request to switch and passed him as eligible to play for the FAI. He has obviously since played for the FAI competitively. I think we can therefore be satisfied that he is eligible, but his case does appear to conflict with the literal wording of the rule that is now frustrating Johansson.
The FIFA Players' Status Committee, however, have been known to grant exemption on a case-by-case basis for minors or players who don't fulfil the "five years of residency after age of 18" stipulation in article 7(d) - or for players acquiring a new nationality who generally can demonstrate an otherwise long-term or genuine connection to the country they wish to play for, in other words - so perhaps an appeal by the FAI and Johansson to this body would worth a shot and exception could be made. I'm not aware of any exemptions from the stipulation in article 8.1(a) ever having been granted to a player, but that's not to say they haven't happened. Indeed, players like Robinson may well be evidence of such exemptions having been granted.
I believe Johansson's situation does differ slightly from, say, Robinson's though, in that Robinson was only ever eligible to play for two countries (or am I mistaken in that?), whereas Johansson holds three nationalities. It's admittedly pure baseless speculation on my part, but maybe FIFA are or were less prepared to grant exemption to Johansson or pass him as eligible for the FAI as he had other options and therefore, by refusing him a transfer to the FAI, it was not seen as unduly stifling him. Just a thought, that, but I've nothing to suggest or indicate that FIFA would think in such a manner, and I'm not really sure why they would either, to be honest. It would seem rather unfair on a player, but I'm just trying to think of why Johansson appears to have been treated differently from, say, Robinson and I can't really think of anything else.
My hope would be that the fact Johansson has been eligible for Irish citizenship since birth (even if it was only effective from the date of registration) might sway FIFA to grant the player an exemption, as that is undeniably a genuine connection to Ireland and evidently would not be a case of a player being naturalised by a self-interested country solely for the benefit of that country's international football team, which is really what FIFA try to safeguard against with the additional criteria in their eligibility regulations.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 07/08/2019 at 4:37 PM.
That could well be the case. Maybe FIFA were happy to let a player like Callum Robinson switch (even though his situation didn't strictly conform to the literal text of article 8.1(a) either) because his original association, the FA, had or raised no qualms about transferring him over?
Well well look what the cat dragged back in! Welcome home.Hey, folks. My Foot.ie senses were tingling.
I've no great insight into the Johansson situation - as it admittedly puzzles me (when compared to cases of other dual nationals that have switched to us) - so I can only give my interpretation and a speculative view as to why things might be the way they are and as to how things might transpire.
My understanding is that Johansson is an Irish citizen and holds an Irish passport. He has been entitled to become an Irish national since his birth, but only acquired it after being registered on the Foreign Births Register, as it was obtained via descent through maternal grandparentage born in Ireland (after he represented Luxembourg at under-age level competitively). I believe the grandparental connection to be to Mullingar, for what it's worth, while his mother was herself born in London. Jonhansson has been an Irish citizen from the date of registration; registration does not have a retroactive effect to his date of birth.
There's further information on the acquiring of Irish citizenship via descent here that will confirm what I say about it above: https://www.citizensinformation.ie/e...nt.html#l091af
Holding the nationality of the country you wish to play for is obviously the primary criteria any aspiring international player must satisfy. However, there are additional criteria within FIFA's Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes that must also be satisfied in cases where a player is acquiring a new nationality to play for a country, where a player wishes to play for a team that shares nationality with another team (such as the four British associations) or where a player wishes to switch association.
Under a literal or strict reading of article 8.1(a) then, Johansson isn't eligible to play for the FAI.
This isn't a "loophole", as has been reported in some media, as if to suggest it exists due to some oversight or something on the part of a careless FIFA. It's a clearly-worded rule with a genuine and serious purpose (mainly, it is to safeguard the game against footballers with no real or genuine connection to a particular country being granted citizenship by that country for purely footballing benefits for that country) and has been in existence for quite some time. It's the rule which would have rendered Mikel Arteta, for example, ineligible from playing for England, since he would not have possessed British nationality at the time of representing Spain competitively at under-age level.
Now, this is where things get interesting. If media articles I've read about Callum Robinson (including quotes from the player himself) are accurate, Robinson acquired his Irish citizenship (also through a grandparent born in Ireland) and passport after having competitively played for England at various under-age levels, yet FIFA ratified his request to switch and passed him as eligible to play for the FAI. He has obviously since played for the FAI competitively. I think can therefore be satisfied that he is eligible, but his case does appear to conflict with the literal wording of the rule that is now frustrating Johansson.
The FIFA Players' Status Committee, however, have been known to grant exemption on a case-by-case basis for minors or players who don't fulfil the "five years of residency after age of 18" stipulation in article 7(d) - or for players acquiring a new nationality who generally can demonstrate an otherwise long-term or genuine connection to the country they wish to play for, in other words - so perhaps an appeal by the FAI and Johansson to this body would worth a shot and exception could be made. I'm not aware of any exemptions from the stipulation in article 8.1(a) ever having been granted to a player, but that's not to say they haven't happened. Indeed, players like Robinson may well be evidence of such exemptions having been granted.
I believe Johansson's situation does differ slightly from, say, Robinson's though, in that Robinson was only ever eligible to play for two countries (or am I mistaken in that?), whereas Johansson holds three nationalities. It's admittedly pure baseless speculation on my part, but maybe FIFA are or were less prepared to grant exemption to Johansson or pass him as eligible for the FAI as he had other options and therefore, by refusing him a transfer to the FAI, it was not seen as unduly stifling him. Just a thought, that, but I've nothing to suggest or indicate that FIFA would think in such a manner, and I'm not really sure why they would either, to be honest. It would seem rather unfair on a player, but I'm just trying to think of why Johansson appears to have been treated differently from, say, Robinson and I can't really think of anything else.
My hope would be that the fact Johansson has been eligible for Irish citizenship since birth might sway FIFA to grant the player an exemption, as that is undeniably a genuine connection to Ireland and evidently would not be a case of a player being naturalised by a self-interested country solely for the benefit of that country's international football team, which is really what FIFA try to safeguard against with the additional criteria in their eligibility regulations.
Is it a legal definition of "nationality" that's at play here?
Are you with the dark side of the force?
Ha, cheers!
In the FIFA rules? Aye, it can be taken to mean the same as legal citizenship.
The English FA would have been required to give a complete list of Callum's underage caps with England, a blind donkey would have spotted Callum was ineligible to switch to Ireland.
Maybe John D fixed it
But Callum's switch to Ireland will not be reversed now regardless, FIFA would just do as the FAI do in such situations, ignore any questions and keep the head down.
Ryan could switch to Sweden should he so desire, his mom claims the Luxembourg FA duped them.
Thinking about it more, can we trust that the FAI were above board or made an efficient effort when they appied to FIFA?
There is little doubt that Callum did not qualify for us and there was/is no exemption or loophole to exploit.
I wonder, if after we beat Denmark in Dublin with a late gammy winner from a classic hoof build up, could the pompous indignant Danes object to Callum's status and have the game awarded to them 3 nil?
Callum played 5 mins - late sub.
That bizarre scenario could happen if the FAI did not provide the full information to FIFA about Callum in the submission.
When the FAI applied to FIFA, they were required to include in the submission
' From the FA of the country the player no longer wishes to represent,
a document explicitly confirming that he (Callum) has not played a match (either in full or in part) in an official competition at “A” international level for that Association (England) as well as a detailed list of all the matches that the player has played (i.e. matches in an official competition and/or friendly matches) with that Football Association at any category of age'
and
'Documentary evidence such as a confirmation issued by the relevant governmental authority or any other official document) that at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for the Association that the player no longer wishes to represent (England), he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he now wishes to play (Ireland).'
Last edited by geysir; 08/08/2019 at 1:00 PM.
The key line their is the last one " had the nationality of .." the term nationality is far broader than passport holder. Johanson has Irish nationality since he was born getting a passport is merely a formality given his mum and grandparents. Nationality is going to be argued to be broader than mere legal citensenship that's why it is in the wording and citensenship isn't. I can see no way his switch wont be granted. The key here is the use of the word nationality and not citizenship in the regulations. They are in no way the same thing
I see those passages are from this FIFA document: https://resources.fifa.com/mm/docume...on_neutral.pdf
The FA would have been required to submit the evidence that Robinson had played for their under-age teams in competitive fixtures. That's not the FAI's responsibility, so hardly the FAI's fault if FIFA missed that aspect of Robinson's transfer case.
Did the FAI not simply have to provide evidence of Robinson's Irish citizenship and the date of acquisition, or are you suggesting the FAI may have omitted information regarding the date, with FIFA then possibly assuming incorrectly that Robinson was an Irish citizen from birth?
Edit: Sorry, had skimmed through the document at first, but I now see that it would indeed have been the FAI's responsibility to first obtain the information about Robinson's caps for England from the FA and then submit the information to FIFA.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 08/08/2019 at 3:44 PM.
Legally-speaking, what's the proof Johansson has been an Irish national from birth though? As outlined in the FIFA document that geysir quoted and that I've linked to in the last post, passports are used and must be supplied by associations as evidence of nationality. In Irish law, Johansson has only been an Irish citizen since the date his birth was registered on the Foreign Births Register.
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