Eligibility Rules, Okay

[DannyInvincible]

We've played each other recently and the only "public disorder" was Northern Ireland fans singing sectarian songs around the stadium while locals ignored them.

Possibly he's a little paranoid?

[Gather round]

We've played each other recently and the only "public disorder" was Northern Ireland fans singing sectarian songs around the stadium while locals ignored them

There'd be rather more tension at a qualifier in Belfast than at effectively a friendly in Dublin.

I know it's not universal, but it's not a insignificant minority either

Like NI society/ politics writ small- a series of permanently belligerent large minorities

Guilty as charged on the paranoia- getting intimidated out of your home. school etc. tends to have that effect...

[DannyInvincible]

I was only slegging. I appreciate there would be heightened tensions and resulting security and public order concerns surrounding a "winner takes all" affair.

[Charlie Darwin]

There is nothing friendly about the Carling Cup my friend...

[DannyInvincible]

Here's an article (a few months old) that I came across yesterday (through a link in this piece on Niall Ó Donnghaile's mention in the Seanad of James McClean in respect of partitionism and the Irishness of northerners) with some interesting comments by an IFA coach named Shane McCullagh on the matter of eligibility. McCullough has had an academic study published on the topic.

He admits that the IFA were fully aware of Darron Gibson's desire to represent the FAI, but continued to select him in spite of that, essentially in the hope of winning Gibson over:

"It was common knowledge at the time that [Gibson] would probably lean towards going to the Republic and it wasn't easy at that time to do it - he sort of forced it through," McCullough, who is still part of the IFA club licensing committee, told SportsJOE.

"Kenny [Shiels] felt he was ready to play for 17s, which was fair enough, but I did say to Kenny that I reckoned when he was selected that he wouldn't play and that's exactly what happened. He played friendlies but he wouldn't play the qualifying games.

"If you get that inkling [that a player is thinking of a move to the Republic], it's very, very difficult. My view at the time was to try and leave him in with the 16s which would've had the like of Johnny Evans and there were a few others in there who have gone on to do quite well. I thought: leave him in with that group, try and bring him through with his own group and then maybe try to bring him through the whole way so he would stay.

"It still might've been a bit of a long shot but I thought that would've been the best approach.

"He was happy to play for me at under-16 level and, when he was a year young, he was brought into the under-17s. When he was selected to play a representative game for the 17s in UEFA competition that would've tied him to Northern Ireland at the time, he cried off.

"It's understandable for the players themselves. They don't want to tie themselves down when they may have another opportunity. Even pragmatically, recent history would show that they will have more chance of qualifying for a major tournament with the Republic. They'll play on a bigger stage, they'll play in a bigger and better stadium and even those things - setting aside all sorts of political ideals - they'd be a factor in players' minds as well."

McCullagh goes on to discuss Niall McGinn's choice to play for the IFA being pragmatic and career-oriented despite the player being an Ireland supporter. He also mentions the anthem and stadium issue:

I know Michael [O'Connor] and others had an issue standing for the national anthem, for the queen, and whatever, and there are practices that certainly legislate against young players from nationalist communities. I think the big elephant in the room is the national anthem. I know the IFA are aware of that - everyone's aware of it - but it's a really difficult one. I think rather than tackle it, they choose to just leave it alone and it hasn't been dealt with.

Maybe for some as well, there was an opportunity to move away from Windsor Park and that wasn't done for a number of reasons. Basically now, the IFA have moved lock, stock and barrel into Windsor Park and all the 'where it is' and the attachment to Linfield maybe doesn't send out the right message to people from a nationalist community. There are lots of issues in and around that, albeit it should be said that the IFA have done fantastic work in the cross-community work that they have done. It's been absolutely first class. They do have a team that represents both sides of the community. The support has changed in terms of the singing and the atmosphere and all of that - it's much, much more positive."

He went on to speak generally on the eligibility dispute and what the IFA can possibly do to ensure more players from the north might wish to play for them, but I found one of his comments to be rather telling in terms of his moral and political biases:

One thing you can do is you can reach a gentleman's agreement which would be the FAI, for example, agreeing that they won't do this but that's not in their interests so I don't think that's going to happen. Politically and ethically, it probably would be a very good gesture on their part but, pragmatically, they want the best team and they want the best players.

I disagree profoundly with that. I think it would be a terrible gesture politically and ethically; it would be to say to northern-born Irish nationals that they weren't wanted and would be to differentiate them through total exclusion from all other Irish nationals simply on account of their place of birth. Why would or should northern-born Irish nationals be treated by the FAI as second-class citizens, or effectively as non-citizens even?

The piece also features the following image:



It's a photo of the NI team lined up before their game against us in the Carling Nations Cup in 2011. However, the band appear to be playing and as not all the players are standing to attention, I assume 'Amhrán na bhFiann' is being played. Note the stances of Warren Feeney (number 10) and Steven Davis (number 8) in particular; the former has his head bowed towards the ground, whilst the latter has his hands on his hips, contrary to what would be usual or traditional anthem protocol. Maybe these are the "low standards" to which Orla Bannon was referring!

In seriousness though, it obviously bothered no-one at the time, nor does it bother me now. I bring it up, however, to ponder whether the likes of Gregory Campbell would express outrage at these lads for failing to stand to attention for the Irish national anthem in the same way they vented fury at James McClean for disengaging from a rendition of 'GSTQ'. For some reason, I think not.

[Charlie Darwin]

And they're not wearing poppies. I'm drafting my letter to the Belfast Telegraph as I type this.

[Olé Olé]

Sammy Clingan (6) and Jonny Gorman (17) are from nationalist or Catholic backgrounds and pay much more respect to the anthem. I think they are the only two starters from such a background that day for NI (unsure about Blayney or McAuley though). Niall McGinn and Liam Boyce came in as substitutes.

[DannyInvincible]

Sammy Clingan (6) and Jonny Gorman (17) are from nationalist or Catholic backgrounds and pay much more respect to the anthem. I think they are the only two starters from such a background that day for NI (unsure about Blayney or McAuley though). Niall McGinn and Liam Boyce came in as substitutes.

McAuley sings 'GSTQ', so I've always assumed he isn't from a nationalist background.

[Gather round]

*

think the big elephant in the room is the national anthem. I know the IFA are aware of that - everyone's aware of it - but it's a really difficult one. I think rather than tackle it, they choose to just leave it alone and it hasn't been dealt with

Disagree. The Anthem's a problem, but hardly one that people don't want to talk about. I'd prefer we had an alternative, and have suggested variously on here; but the idea that Niall McGinn (say), let alone someone like Paddy Barnes would enthuse for it is fanciful.

Maybe for some as well, there was an opportunity to move away from Windsor Park and that wasn't done for a number of reasons.

There was a suggestion. It was clearly very unpopular with NI fans. Its shortcomings (cost, accessibility, facilities etc.) were all widely discussed at the time. And as per point above, it's fanciful that Nationalist potential fans would have welcomed a white elephant miles from mainly Unionist Lisburn town center any more than they did Windsor Park.

Basically now, the IFA have moved lock, stock and barrel into Windsor Park and all the 'where it is' and the attachment to Linfield maybe doesn't send out the right message to people from a nationalist community

The Nationalist Community's supposed problems with Windsor are rooted in prejudice based on events long ago. I acknowledge them but they were never seriously a veto on where to site/ redevelop the stadium. At the trivial level, Glentoran or Coleraine fans dislike Linfield's advantages as much as Cliftonville or Derry's do.

it obviously bothered no-one at the time, nor does it bother me now

Heh, unsubtle whataboutery alert by your standards Still, thanks for not dragging out Rory Patterson's beer-gut from your Anthem photo album

I don't quite share others' fascination with which foot big G kicks with (except that when the ball's anywhere near either in the 6 yard box you're usually talking imminent own-goal). He's from a Glens village so hillbilly people from Larne ridicule it. I know many McAuley's thereabouts, mostly Catholics. His other name is Gerard etc etc.

[geysir]

Maybe Jim is referring to the "abuse, intimidation and threats" that Gary McAllister was going on about that time he was talking through his derrière?

I'm reminded of those bogeyman stories we use to mercilessly embellish in order to frighten the younger kids. Apparently up North, the bogeymen still lurks about, shape shifting over time into one who wears a FAI blazer.

[DannyInvincible]

Heh, unsubtle whataboutery alert by your standards Still, thanks for not dragging out Rory Patterson's beer-gut from your Anthem photo album

I don't quite share others' fascination with which foot big G kicks with (except that when the ball's anywhere near either in the 6 yard box you're usually talking imminent own-goal). He's from a Glens village so hillbilly people from Larne ridicule it. I know many McAuley's thereabouts, mostly Catholics. His other name is Gerard etc etc.

Heh, in what way is it whataboutery on my part? I'm simply pointing out a likely hypocrisy on the part of Gregory and the like because they cry so loudly about it any time James McClean has the "audacity" not to conform to their ideal. I doubt they'd direct the same bile the way of Feeney and Davis. I'm not deflecting from any difficult issue for myself or hypocrisy on my own part; to the contrary, I defend the right of players to opt out of anthem renditions, irrespective of who the player is (be it James McClean, Sammy Morrow, Steven Davis, Warren Feeney, Adem Ljajić, Abbas Suan, Walid Badir or Beram Kayal) or what the anthem is (be it 'GSTQ', 'AnbhF', 'Bože pravde' or 'Hatikvah'). If you think I am guilty of avoiding an issue that I ought to be confronting, feel free to point it out.

Luckily for you, I don't have photos of pot-bellied Patterson; sure they wouldn't fit on my hard-drive!

And it's not so much a fascination with McAuley; more so just idle chitchat since the question was asked. McAuley's middle-name is actually Gerald, if that's of any significance. What do the people from Larne ridicule; his OG-scoring abilities?

[Gather round]

@DI- I'm suggesting rather that you're reviving a non-issue, or at least a non-news story. Gregory Campbell winding up Fenians, basically. As you say no-one really cares that Warren Feeney belts out six verses of an anthem or Steven Davis gets bored and scratches his arse.

Corrected on McAuley's full name, apologies. My point was merely that there are hints to both unionism and nationalism in his background.

His home village gets teased locally for people sounding a bit culchie, basically. When NI players do media interviews, you might think Davis (captain), Evans (best player) and McAuley (oldest, proper job pre-football) would be prominent. But Davis has an even stronger accent than McAuley and Evans can get tongue-tied. So you hear Josh Magennis enthusing about the Dublin training camp because the hotel, training pitch and golf course are all close enough to be reached by buggy without having to get fully dressed first

[backstothewall]

*
There was a suggestion. It was clearly very unpopular with NI fans. Its shortcomings (cost, accessibility, facilities etc.) were all widely discussed at the time. And as per point above, it's fanciful that Nationalist potential fans would have welcomed a white elephant miles from mainly Unionist Lisburn town center any more than they did Windsor Park.



The Nationalist Community's supposed problems with Windsor are rooted in prejudice based on events long ago. I acknowledge them but they were never seriously a veto on where to site/ redevelop the stadium. At the trivial level, Glentoran or Coleraine fans dislike Linfield's advantages as much as Cliftonville or Derry's do.

I think the main problem nationalist had with Windsor is the surrounding area. At the it was being planned time my preference would have been a new site in Belfast (Perhaps the one suggested on the Ormeau Road)

In the event they went with staying at Windsor but knocked down the surrounding area. That was probanly the best idea of them all. It's a great site for a stadium if it the walk through the village can be avoided.

[Gather round]

I think the main problem nationalist had with Windsor is the surrounding area

For as long as I can remember (I started secondary school in the area in 1973), Windsor Park has been surrounded to the West and South by industrial/ trading estates, to the East by the Lisburn Road with a large student and other transient population, and only to the North by the working-class Unionist 'Village' area. There's easy main road access via Lisburn Road/ Tate's Avenue from the East/ City, and via Boucher Road from the Country/ Motorway.

So I think that for many the problem is symbolic. The situation of and access to the ground are less important.

At the it was being planned time my preference would have been a new site in Belfast (Perhaps the one suggested on the Ormeau Road)

I think the Ormeau Park suggested site was at the Ravenhill End and there wasn't enough space. Same applied to May's Field by the train station and the bus depot site at Glengall Street

In the event they went with staying at Windsor but knocked down the surrounding area. That was probably the best idea of them all. It's a great site for a stadium if it the walk through the village can be avoided

See above. That said, I have some sympathy for local residents on big match evenings

[DannyInvincible]

@DI- I'm suggesting rather that you're reviving a non-issue, or at least a non-news story. Gregory Campbell winding up Fenians, basically. As you say no-one really cares that Warren Feeney belts out six verses of an anthem or Steven Davis gets bored and scratches his arse.

I must protest, mister. It was Orla Bannon who done it, talking about "low standards" and all that.

I sensed she was taking a subtle dig at James McClean. Even the non-paranoid could perceive that!

His home village gets teased locally for people sounding a bit culchie, basically. When NI players do media interviews, you might think Davis (captain), Evans (best player) and McAuley (oldest, proper job pre-football) would be prominent. But Davis has an even stronger accent than McAuley and Evans can get tongue-tied.

I do have to admit that I mock imitated Davis' accent last time I heard him speak in an interview.

[backstothewall]

So I think that for many the problem is symbolic. The situation of and access to the ground are less important.

Could you define what you mean by symbolic? I'm not really sure what you mean.

When I'm talking about reluctance to go to Windsor Park and the surrounding area I'm referring to going there for any reason, be it a boxing match or whatever.

If you're talking about nationalists not supporting NI I'd suggest it goes an awful lot deeper than symbols

[Gather round]

Could you define what you mean by symbolic? I'm not really sure what you mean.

When I'm talking about reluctance to go to Windsor Park and the surrounding area I'm referring to going there for any reason, be it a boxing match or whatever

For many Nationalists I've discussed it with over the years, Windsor Park symbolises many of the failings of the NI state(let). Institutionalised discrimination, lack of civil rights etc. as they see it.

Some, like you, refer the surrounding area. As I detailed above for non-Belfast residents, most of that surrounding area (on three sides of the ground) is industrial/ trading estates, and mixed/ transient population housing. Visitors to the ground can walk or drive there along main roads that avoid the working-class Unionist Village area.

If you're talking about nationalists not supporting NI I'd suggest it goes an awful lot deeper than symbols

Not directly, no. Broadly I don't expect Nationalist fans to support NI, though any who do are welcome. Because, obviously, those fans tend to support RoI.

I'd prefer non-NI fans neither

a) blamed the cauldron of sectarian hatred and its surrounding seething mass of Billy Boy housing for their non-support. (Honest about their obvious bias, in other words), or

b) gave undue weight to other, non-specifically local factors such as traffic access to inner-city sports stadia (seeking to deny that bias in many cases).

[osarusan]

If you're talking about nationalists not supporting NI I'd suggest it goes an awful lot deeper than symbols

I would have thought the same, which is why I've wondered about the merits of the 'be more inclusive' argument - the argument that a more inclusive anthem and other aspects of the team/set up would make supporters and players and from nationalist backgrounds more likely to support/play for the IFA.

I don't really see how it gels with the 'I'm Irish, ROI is my team, it's that simple' position.

[Gather round]

I would have thought the same, which is why I've wondered about the merits of the 'be more inclusive' argument - the argument that a more inclusive anthem and other aspects of the team/set up would make supporters and players and from nationalist backgrounds more likely to support/play for the IFA.

I don't really see how it gels with the 'I'm Irish, ROI is my team, it's that simple' position

I'd say 'being more inclusive/ welcoming' makes a good default position for various reasons, including commercial.

As I usually say, the main target for this outreach isn't Nationalists but people who aren't instinctively hostile to NI, but for whatever reasons didn't want to watch games at Windsor. Garden Center Unionists, LetsGetAlongIsts, call them what you will.

I want a different anthem to make NI distinct from England, Britain, Liechtenstein etc. I'd prefer if our flag didn't have Mrs Windsor's crown on it and all

There is a bit of gentle doublethink going on here. Nationalist commentators want the NI team and its symbolism to be more inclusive, but not too much so- just in case the team becomes both welcoming AND successful and attracts loads of kids from Derry, Newry and Andytown...

[backstothewall]

For many Nationalists I've discussed it with over the years, Windsor Park symbolises many of the failings of the NI state(let). Institutionalised discrimination, lack of civil rights etc. as they see it.

Some, like you, refer the surrounding area. As I detailed above for non-Belfast residents, most of that surrounding area (on three sides of the ground) is industrial/ trading estates, and mixed/ transient population housing. Visitors to the ground can walk or drive there along main roads that avoid the working-class Unionist Village area.

Technically you are right about this, but almost all the bars etc are on the Lisburn Road side of the ground, which means an inevitable walk up Tates Avenue (usually after dark during the football season). This is improving rapidly as the gentrification of the area continues.

a) blamed the cauldron of sectarian hatred and its surrounding seething mass of Billy Boy housing for their non-support. (Honest about their obvious bias, in other words), or

Just because there has been a dramatic improvement in this regard since the 90s doesn't mean it isn't a problem anymore (Very little of it in Windsor Park itself these days but it is an issue around Belfast on match days). But the improvement in the ground is both noticeable and welcome in equal measure.

I'd say 'being more inclusive/ welcoming' makes a good default position for various reasons, including commercial.

As I usually say, the main target for this outreach isn't Nationalists but people who aren't instinctively hostile to NI, but for whatever reasons didn't want to watch games at Windsor. Garden Center Unionists, LetsGetAlongIsts, call them what you will.

I want a different anthem to make NI distinct from England, Britain, Liechtenstein etc. I'd prefer if our flag didn't have Mrs Windsor's crown on it and all

Happy to agree with 95% of that again. Given the institution that flag represented and how it mistreated a massive section of our society, a great many of whom are still alive and well, i find it particularly objectionable that it is still used for anything in this day and age. Whilst the treatment inflicted on the Catholic population by the old Stormont obviously don't compare to the evils of slavery, what happened to my parents and their parents here was still disgusting, and I do feel that flag needs to be drummed out of our society in the same way the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia is being stamped out of society in the former Confederate States. From time to time I see middle class getalongerist kids carrying it and the mind boggles that they don't even realise how divisive a symbol it is.

But that's a problem across our society, and I certainly don't see a football association as being high on the priority list of institutions where that particular nettle needs to be grasped.

There is a bit of gentle doublethink going on here. Nationalist commentators want the NI team and its symbolism to be more inclusive, but not too much so- just in case the team becomes both welcoming AND successful and attracts loads of kids from Derry, Newry and Andytown..

I can't imagine that is going to be a problem in those areas any time soon. It seems to me no more likely that kids from ROI supporting families will switch to supporting the north because they have improved their image, than it would be for the kids of Liverpool fans to start supporting Everton if they replaced Goodison Park or something.

In my experience (and that of my children) the football team you support is just about the last thing left that is chosen for you by your father before you are born, over which neither you nor your mother gets any say whatsoever. I suspect it will be the last relic of the patriarchy still going long after NI has ceased to exist.