QuoteMore hogwash. Ever heard of the GFA?
There is no border these days and if there's a UI team it will be decided by FIFA/UEFA not fans FFS.
I didn't incite anything (gentle retaliation at worst). There's a border, if any of the people I mentioned have ever lived on your side of it correct me. There's nothing remotely unfair in suggesting that you accept reality.Originally Posted by Ole Ole
Nothing I, or Eamon Donoghue, said is legally actionable. Even suggesting that it's in any way a legal matter is trivial.
It wouldn't actually. The two 'sides' you present are entirely at cross-purposes, there is no possibility whatever of compromise. We (NI fans) make clear time and again that we are not interested in joining, merging with or even taking over your football team. This isn't a process of give and take for you, it's just another element in your foundation myth. It's historically bunk, not conducive to neighborly good relations and quite likely unhealthy. You should give it up and focus on something actually achievable.It would obviously be a mutually-agreed thing that would necessarily involve compromise on both sides, if it were to happen and work, that is
You want the end of the IFA as a first principle but aren't willing or confident enough to argue that in isolation. The equal end of the FAI is an inevitable consequence of any new entity replacing both.to say I'm advocating the dissolution of the FAI, as if it's some active campaign I'm engaged in, gives a misleading impression
More hogwash. Ever heard of the GFA?
There is no border these days and if there's a UI team it will be decided by FIFA/UEFA not fans FFS.
. We (NI fans) make clear time and again that we are not interested in joining, merging with or even taking over your football .[/QUOTE]
But who exactly are NI fans? The majority of people in NI apparently do favour a single team. If you are defining supporters as simply the people who attend games - or even simply people who agree with you - I think you are failing to understand the idea that underpins international football. You are not a club. The team "represents" the place / country / people not just a self-selecting and seemingly unrepresentative group of football fans.
I indicated that what he'd said was legally-inaccurate; not legally-actionable. The relevant constitutional article refers to the island as a unit for the determination of nationality by birth. It also refers to beyond the island - and not beyond the border of the southern state - as "abroad". Also, only births outside the island can be included in the Foreign Births Register. If births in the north were legally-foreign, they would qualify for inclusion in the register, but they don't. Therefore, they are not foreign births under Irish law, meaning Donoghue was incorrect to refer to them as such.
I'll trust every NI fan I know (on this issue if no other they all agree with me) ahead of what one academic sociology survey of often non-football fans apparently/ seemingly says. Remind me how the united Ireland football team party did in the last/ any NI election?
I understand the nature of football support just as well as you, thanks . The NI team represents anyone who wants to support it, whether at home or abroad. They're self-selecting pretty much by definition.
Last edited by Gather round; 05/06/2016 at 5:12 PM.
Yawn.
He was talking about all the people of that supposed country. Which even 100k fans doesn't outweigh.
Anyway when FIFA decide there has to be ultimately one team per country, then three of the four British teams will have to find elsewhere to swim.
You are making a rather tell- tale connection there between people who would support a single football team and people who support the political objective of a united Ireland. The evidence suggests this is an erroneous connection. If your argument was valid it would follow that anyone who supports Northern Ireland is logically pro-Union which is manifestly not true either. It is the tendency of a certain very vociferous faction if NI fans to assert this point that constitutes the problem, and inclines a lot of people whose primary interest is football not politics to support the idea of a single team.
OK Constable, quote me your evidence. Mine (mainly anecdotal, but large scale and confirmed time and again over decades), is that most people in NI who would like to see the NI international team disappear are Nationalist in their politics. The notion of a large group who want the former while being Unionist, otherwise political or simply uninterested is fanciful. Of course there will be individuals who buck the trend, just as there are Unionist votes in Belfast North who transferred to SF after elimination in the recent election. Nine out of a total poll of about 35,000 if you're interested.
My argument is fairly simple, although you have either misunderstood or not read it. Briefly: almost everyone wanting the team dissolved is a Nationalist. Which isn't the same as nobody supporting it can therefore be Nationalist, although clearly those who do are in a minority.If your argument was valid it would follow that anyone who supports Northern Ireland is logically pro-Union which is manifestly not true either
I'm seeing a tendency for people who want to abolish a football team to fail to back up their spurious reasons for doing so. I suggest you recommend to your lots of non-political football fans that if they don't like the teams available that they form their own and work their way up from the Park Leagues.It is the tendency of a certain very vociferous faction if NI fans to assert this point that constitutes the problem, and inclines a lot of people whose primary interest is football not politics to support the idea of a single team
The reasons have been consistently backed-up. They have been articulated very eloquently by a large number of people including, I repeat, ex NI international players, and are primarily about having a better team. You might hold a different view, but you and your circle if true fans appear to be in a minority.
Find that a weird question. Regardless of who international football teams are *supposed* to represent, the fans whose opinion should be paramount is clearly the people who go to matches, buy jerseys, follow the forturnes of the team on a daily, weekly, monthly basis.
Not those who occasionally glance at the Michael O'Neill interview at the back of a Bel Tel or would love to see an All-Ireland team cause of some kumbaya need to heal the ills of the last 40-odd years.
The evidence of support is flimsy and, besides, usual rules don't apply in Northern Ireland - a lot of people are ambivalent towards the national team because questions of nationality are more than a little bit complicated, as we well know.
Anecdotally, most people I know who've expressed support for an All-Ireland team are either vaguely Republic fans, have no real interest in international football or, indeed, no real interest in football at any level.
Personally, I can imagine the reaction on here if the RoI matches were compromised because of the views of people who think the Aviva is a type of car.
The only way I see it changing is if a united Ireland comes about. No danger of that for a good while yet, so horse on GAWA.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
I do think that the experience of the big time might change that. You can't miss what you've never had and frankly the world has changed since the last time NI qualified in 1986.
Big tournament football is where it's at these days. The difference in the experience between 1994 & 2002 was marked. The difference in the experience between 2002 & 2012 was marked. Imagine how the 1986 to 2016 difference is. This will be a rude awakening for them.
That will be great for a while but if they go for 8 or 10 years without it happening again (which, let's face it, is likely) that might change. The average guy in the street who supports the Ireland rugby team could come to miss the glamour of the whole thing.
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
I see. Only that evidence which agrees with your inbuilt bias is credible? You'll need to improve on that to pass the Sergeant's exam.
My evidence, apart from being built up from thousands of fans and hundreds of matches over decades, is hardly random, Mr Professor of Logic. A huge number of self-selecting fans outweigh a few handfuls of ex-players and your elusive mass of garden centre Unionists hinted at in one question in one sociological survey (which was generally about community access to recreational facilities). Unless you think George Best or Derek Dougan's ability as players makes their opinion worth vastly more than any individual fan's, they're about as numerically significant as the TUV voters transferring to SF that I mentioned.
Yes, let's not lapse into cod-academic waffle. One survey response and a few ex-players aren't evidence of most people in NI. As SvD suggests above, most people there (like almost anywhere) aren't that interested in football. A survey question asked slightly differently- 'Do you think the NI football team should be abolished' would likely have got a rather different response. And given the context (ie, that there's already an alternative all-Ireland team for people to support) would have given a more realistic picture.Let's not get too lost in complex syllogisms here. Let's just remind ourselves of the evidence. Most people in NI would like to see a single football team. It works for Rugby, boxing, cricket, golf etc and no one feels politically compromised
As you may know, NI's leading performers in many sports including most that you mentioned already take part other than in all-Ireland teams. Whether that be in a NI team (eg at the Commonwealth Games), for Britain or occasionally England, or in individual sports under the NI flag. Actually rugby union is as much of an anomaly as football. Which brings us full circle: there might still be a single Irish team if the FAI hadn't split in protest at perceived local bias. There's no chance in the foreseeable future of returning to one.
Only in your imagination.The reasons have been consistently backed-up. They have been articulated very eloquently by a large number of people including, I repeat, ex NI international players, and are primarily about having a better team. You might hold a different view, but you and your circle if true fans appear to be in a minority
Really? You've made three tournaments out of the last 11. Wales, NI and Scotland went/ have gone 40, 30 and 18 years respectively since any success. All four kept a hardcore of support throughout. If any of us wanted to lose our identity for a better chance of qualifying, there are better alternatives available.
Not sure I get your RU parallel. Effectively, the Six Nations play the same qualifying tournament over and again, before getting walloped when they meet the Southern Hemisphere teams in the World Cup. If their fans prefer repeated trips to Edinburgh or Cardiff than a choice of 50 different countries, fine. Each to their own.
More pointless waffle.
Also Scotland and Wales have their own unique flags, languages and anthems to help keep their identity. What does the North have?
They have GR who is fairly handy PR asset though overly reliant on rhetorical flourishes (I love "garden centre Unionist" description), but a bit weak on logic and empirical evidence.
If he's still listening, can I extend sincere best wishes for the Euros. They were "my team" back in the day as he knows. There was a time when the NI team was one of the few unifying emblems that transcended sectarian and political affiliations in the North, and therein lies the tragedy. They are now a fetish for Unionist identity and GR's particularly vivid brand of "No Surrender" rhetoric.
And why should people whose only crime is to have visited a garden be ignored and cast to the margins of Unionism? It must have been a Sunday.
Last edited by third policeman; 06/06/2016 at 2:03 PM. Reason: typo
http://www.irishexaminer.com/euro201...16-402968.html
Get beyond the feelgood factor as Euro 2016 looms and there is real cause for concern for the Republic of Ireland when attention turns to a tough-looking World Cup qualifying campaign, writes Brendan O’Brien
Tuesday’s performance and result at Turner’s Cross aside, it has been a pleasant enough run-in to the European Championships, with the blue skies and sunshine that has framed training at the National Sports Campus in Dublin and Cork’s Fota Island doing its bit in keeping the mood upbeat and optimistic.
It isn’t just the Republic of Ireland who have benefited.
Northern Ireland’s visit to Carton House late last month coincided with the long stretch of hazy bliss, and it lent a peaceful and cheerful air to a relaxed media day when 21 of Michael O’Neill’s players wandered in and around the building and surrounding gardens, where they chatted away to their hearts’ content.
The entire affair lasted two hours and it was only halfway done when the thought struck that the overwhelming majority of those interviewed bore distinctly recognisable Northern accents. A pretty obvious assertion, you might think, but the contrast having spent so long covering their Republic of Ireland counterparts was marked in that regard.
Just to be clear: this is not to decry the presence of any player born in Derry, Glasgow, Manchester in Martin O’Neill’s squad, but the presence of so many with accents hewn from jurisdictions other than that of the 26 counties is still an issue which probably doesn’t get as much air time as it should merit.
Martin O’Neill’s 23-man squad for Euro 2016 includes nine players whose birth certs were processed outside of the Republic.
In fairness, the proportion of second and third generation Irish in previous squads used to be even greater. The number was 11 in 1988 and 2002 and 13 in the 1990 and 1994 World Cups. Or, 56% of both those squads, in other words.
It fell to just eight for Euro 2012 and, while the Republic will have a greater amount of players with domestic league experience in their latest squad, the North have chosen only five men who qualified through parentage or the granny rule. And this despite a population which is roughly one-third that of southern neighbours who haven’t always been, well, neighbourly.
The procurement of players born, bred and made in the North by the FAI has been stemmed since Michael O’Neill took charge in Belfast, but there will be those watching as the tournament unfolds in France for whom the sight of Shane Duffy and James McClean wearing a different shade of green will not sit well.
Among them will be Felix Healy. Born in Derry, Healy played and managed in the League of Ireland and the Irish League and he also lined out for Northern Ireland at the 1982 World Cup. The Troubles were embedded in the fabric of daily life in the North at the time. The Good Friday Agreement and the merest hint of someone representing the Republic was another generation down the road.
“When I was playing, you were Northern Ireland,” Healy explained, in a conversation with this column recently. “John O’Neill and I were from Derry and it was Northern Ireland. In Derry, now it is a different scenario. My eldest young fella is going to all the Republic of Ireland matches. He goes everywhere and he is going to France.
“The way Derry is (with players representing two different countries), it can be in many ways divisive. My thoughts are that you shouldn’t be allowed to play 15, 16, 17, and 18 and then just jump ship and play for somebody else, but that’s the nature of the beast. I hope both teams do well, but I think it will be incredibly difficult for both.”
Whether sourced in Northern Ireland or elsewhere, the sheer volume of players whose football education was gleaned from systems outside the Republic is alarming — their presence at this elevated level had little or nothing to do with the FAI, beyond some underage squads and in the case of those from the North, not even that.
The FAI and its high performance director Ruud Dokter will argue that they have put ever-improving systems, structures, and expertise in place at grassroots levels in recent years and yet the lack of talent progressing through those pathways to the senior international side has been all but non-existent under O’Neill’s watch.
It emerged on Wednesday that Ireland will have the oldest squad by average age at Euro 2016, as was the case in 2012. The average age will be just 68 days short of 30, which is an exceptionally high figure for any major field sport, and only nine debuts have been handed out by O’Neill since his first game in charge, against Latvia, in November of 2013. Just two of those were players who played their underage club football in the Republic before making it as professional footballers in the UK, and neither Jonny Hayes or Alan Judge are what we would call spring chickens. It’s a damning rap sheet and a real cause for concern once the Euros end and attention turns to a much stiffer World Cup qualifying campaign.
Don't mind GR, he's just trying to get the rise, for reasons best known to himself.
Brendan O'Brien says in his piece quoted by Stutts above that the FAI "haven’t always been, well, neighbourly". "Procurement"? This is nonsense. There's nothing illegitimate going on. Some journalists - mainly southern ones? - need to get over their guilt complex. The FAI facilitate eligible players who are willing and good enough. These are players who've grown up supporting Ireland and who dream of playing for Ireland. It's the players' choice. If the FAI self-imposed a ban on selecting a particular set of eligible Irish nationals, or specifically Irish nationals from the north, there'd be a lot of unhappy people, north, south and beyond; myself included.
He claims the "merest hint of someone representing the Republic was another generation down the road" from Felix Healy's playing days in the '80s, but he's obviously unaware of the case of Jimmy McGeough Sr., who was denied the opportunity to play for the FAI in the late '60s despite being eligible in principle. Other players such as Danny Hale and Danny Trainor would also have been keen.
He makes a number of good points about FAI infrastructural and developmental problems otherwise.
One could make the very same argument about partition - that it's divisive and not conducive to neighbourly good relations - surely? Why is the notion of unity "historically bunk" and "quite likely unhealthy"? Would you describe unionism or even the evidently historically-problematic, life-costing and economically-impoverishing concept of Northern Ireland in such terms? Ireland was one before NI ever came into existence, which wasn't even a century ago. That's not to deny the validity of your divergent aspirations; it's just to say that you're hardly in a position to be lecturing or pretending your aspirations have any more merit than mine, especially when those aspirations are creating greater hardship for people whilst the rest of Ireland prospers. Since when did we have to stifle or discard our ideals and aspirations based on what others might think is or isn't achievable, or even based on what others might prefer us to believe in?
It's borderline insulting to assert a sort of absolute superiority of ideas, but you'll no doubt accuse me of more "mopery". You can't always play that card when someone raises a grievance or takes issue with hypocrisy, disrespect or ignorance. It's like the old "it's political correctness gone mad" mantra of the Right when their insulting and inaccurate ideas are rightly criticised and challenged.
Anyway, the point is that I'm not campaigning for or even advocating a forced abolition of the IFA, which is almost how you make it out. It's not correct to say "this isn't a process of give and take" for me. I fully respect the IFA's right to exist and I'm well aware of the desires of NI supporters. That's fine. Any change would be completely voluntary, mutually-agreed and would necessarily involve compromise on both sides. I'm only having a theoretical discussion about it and it's primarily directed at ourselves (or those of us who might be supportive of the idea of a united team) actually. It's self-reflection; not criticism of NI fans. In that sense, it always puzzles me as to why it seems to hit a nerve so much. It would be completely consensual, so there's no reason to feel threatened by it. If NI fans don't want it, fine; I won't hold it against them. It's up to those of us who might desire it to do the persuading and to present a compelling case. There's no moral expectation upon you whatsoever. You're entitled to your identity and your aspirations. Isn't that respectful and tolerant? I have no interest in forcing anything upon anyone and would strongly object to that notion.
A united team is, as SvD says, unlikely except in the event of a united Ireland - I'm fully aware - but I think these sorts of cultural-rooted conversations are ones that proponents of unity - of both team and country - must think about having as there's quite a bit of "ideological" and practical cross-over in terms of acknowledging that we'll necessarily have to compromise rather than just expect unionists to jump aboard the idea. Similar principles apply to the idea of uniting Ireland as apply to the discussion of uniting the football teams, or even to the discussion on whether or not the Irish rugby team is as inclusive as it claims to be.
I have acknowledged that that could be a consequence though, so why would I focus solely on the IFA. To do so would be hypocritical, which I always strive to avoid. The idea of applying the same principles that we apply to others to ourselves is very important. It's not out of cowardice that I talk of compromise. I know it's not even a prevalent idea amongst Ireland fans or even republicans, but I think it's important to self-reflect and to challenge conventional wisdom when it's proving counter-productive. It's hardly cowardice to do that. Many people on "this side" of the fence would offload scorn and loathing upon my ideas.You want the end of the IFA as a first principle but aren't willing or confident enough to argue that in isolation. The equal end of the FAI is an inevitable consequence of any new entity replacing both.
I think the local bias was evident. Anyway, it's not accurate to describe the FAI as having split as it would suggest a partitionist sentiment inspired the establishment of the association, which simply isn't true. I wrote this a while back on it on my blog:
Numerous attempts and meetings to reconcile the two associations were attempted over the years but failed for whatever reason.To assume there was [a partitionist] spirit would be to misunderstand the events of the day.
The FAI was originally set up in 1921, not technically to split from the IFA, but to actually replace the IFA as the national all-island association. It was reported in August of that year that the organisation was the “Football Association of All-Ireland [and] as its name indicates, will have jurisdiction over all Ireland, and it is expected that clubs will affiliate from all provinces”. Indeed, the Falls District League of mainly-nationalist west Belfast (which included clubs like West Ham and Alton United, who won the 1923 FAI Cup) affiliated with the new Dublin-based association along with other northern clubs from the predominantly-nationalist settlements of Derry and Downpatrick.
It was only when the Dublin association came to seek admission to FIFA, the international governing body of football, in 1923 that the FAI’s jurisdiction was limited to the 26 counties of what was then the Irish Free State and it adopted the name ‘the Football Association of the Irish Free State’. In effect, formal and official recognition was dependent upon a compromising on ideals; the association would not have been admitted to FIFA had it insisted on maintaining a 32-county, all-island jurisdiction.
You flatter me- although I think 'complex syllogism' probably wins the prize for rhetorical flourish/ sh*tting a thesaurus. Garden Centre Unionist (ie, non-voting, often dismissive of the plebs who do) has been used in the local media for a long time.
Poor comeback. The only evidence you've added to my original reference is that a few unnamed NI players would prefer there not to be a NI team. That handful are well known, although perhaps telling that you didn't name any. Forgotten who they are?but a bit weak on logic and empirical evidence
We've already established that you think 'most critics of the NI team are Nationalists' leads directly to 'Nationalists can't support NI'. You're aren't really in a position to criticise anyone else's logic, I'm afraid.
Good wishes returned with thanks. The main reason many from the broadly Nationalist community don't support NI is that they identify with the Republic's team. I have no problem with that, wish them well and don't agree that it's a tragedy.If he's still listening, can I extend sincere best wishes for the Euros. They were "my team" back in the day as he knows. There was a time when the NI team was one of the few unifying emblems that transcended sectarian and political affiliations in the North, and therein lies the tragedy
They are much less fetishised as Unionist than during the Troubles. I haven't suggested anything that a reasonable reader could characterise as 'No Surrender'. That's just a not very complex silliness.They are now a fetish for Unionist identity and GR's particularly vivid brand of "No Surrender" rhetoric
Whataboutery alert. Anyway, you and I and others on this thread have discussed various alternatives to the current partition (each of which would of course be repartition of a kind). Contrary to TP's claim above, I'm always up for a discussion towards compromise
The foundation myth? There was never a united Ireland except under British rule. The football team(s)? You already have one that any Irish supporter or player can follow or aspire to play for. That should be enough for anyone reasonable, but instead you riff incessantly about the end of another team. It's obsessive, so potentially unhealthy.Why is the notion of unity "historically bunk" and "quite likely unhealthy"?
A concept didn't intimidate my family out of the New Lodge. As you know, I regularly criticise Unionist and British Govt politics. I'm an equal opportunity critic.Would you describe unionism or even the evidently historically-problematic, life-costing and economically-impoverishing concept of Northern Ireland in such terms?
I'm neither lecturing nor pretending anything, just answering your argument. Which is after all that my football team shouldn't exist, however much you dance around a pinhead suggesting summat else.you're hardly in a position to be lecturing or pretending your aspirations have any more merit than mine
Without wishing to be trite, Josh Magennis or Lee Hodson playing international football in a major tournament isn't harming anyone, although I imagine it upsets most Kilmarnock fans just a wee bit. On the wider issue, as discussed recently I'm not convinced by David McWilliams and others: the South still has structural economic problems and an extra 40% population is likely to worsen thosein any notional UI.especially when those aspirations are creating greater hardship for people whilst the rest of Ireland prospers
Maybe it is- but I haven't done that.It's borderline insulting to assert a sort of absolute superiority of ideas
Don't be silly. I only raise it when your supposed 'grievances' are trivial, as I said.You can't always play that card when someone raises a grievance or takes issue with hypocrisy, disrespect or ignorance
Er, no. It suggests what it says- that the FAI split. I acknowledge that they hoped/ assumed the IFA would simply allow them to take over. Until it didn't. In 1923Anyway, it's not accurate to describe the FAI as having split as it would suggest a partitionist sentiment inspired the establishment of the association, which simply isn't
More circular waffle.
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