Eligibility Rules, Okay

**geysir** · 03/02/2015, 3:41 PM

Pity you don't like dogs, though.

**DannyInvincible** · 03/02/2015, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by DeLorean

What are the chances of Ireland's Call being used if Rory McIllroy wins gold in Rio?

I'm guessing the question isn't entirely serious, but I'd imagine the Irish governing body would have to submit their anthem before the games would commence.

Originally Posted by geysir

In derryspeak that probably just means taking the dog for a walk.

The significance of that bit specifically is that it's referring to the popular local practice of walking the greyhounds. I thought it was well-known - maybe not - but the Brandywell has a greyhound racing track around its pitch.

**geysir** · 03/02/2015, 3:57 PM

Good you cleared that one up Danny, I thought the dog might have meant the wife.

**DeLorean** · 03/02/2015, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by geysir

Pity you don't like dogs, though.

I do as it happens, and I've no problem with dogs being walked or trained, if fact I'd commend it as a practice

It just sounds sh!t I think, more like something from a Richie Kavanagh track than an Irish ballad masterpiece, as you rightly call it.

Yeah Danny, just half serious. Would have assumed the same as yourself.

**Gather round** · 03/02/2015, 4:33 PM

Ireland's Call's rather pleasant.

But here's Mr Coulter's finest works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytii7-bUxuk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzdcFEHre4Y

And Mr McIlroy's theme song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47PtUvHIQpk

**NeverFeltBetter** · 06/02/2015, 11:56 PM

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports...?wpsrc=fol_tw#

Obviously Qatar would find it rather hard to pull this off for the World Cup because of the more stringent rules regarding changing nationality in football, but its not hard to imagine them gaming the system a little right? A few promising youngsters brought into the country before 2017 perhaps? Something to keep an eye on.

**DannyInvincible** · 07/02/2015, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter

http://www.slate.com/articles/sports...?wpsrc=fol_tw#

Obviously Qatar would find it rather hard to pull this off for the World Cup because of the more stringent rules regarding changing nationality in football, but its not hard to imagine them gaming the system a little right? A few promising youngsters brought into the country before 2017 perhaps? Something to keep an eye on.

Funnily enough, the rules were tightened and their intent clarified specifically because Qater were attempting to naturalise Brazilians in order to play for their football team back in 2004. FIFA's emergency committee got involved then to put a stop to it. Qatar weren't the only offenders, it must be said. So it will be interesting to see what Qatar do on this front, if anything, within the next seven years.

**Irwin3** · 07/02/2015, 6:08 PM

Decided to have a quick look at the Qatar squad and straight away I notice the name Mohammed Muntari and decide to investigate. Born in Ghana, moved to Qatar aged 19 in 2013 (from the information available) and is now playing for Qatar since December 2014 having 'naturalized'. How his eligibility can be explained under FIFA eligibility rules, I have no idea?

This Ghanaian articles makes note of him being "coerced into playing for the rich Arab state."
http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePag....php?ID=340205

Also some people speculating on his eligibility here:
http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/...001054/page-49

To get in through the under 18 rule he would have to have been given citizenship before his 18th birthday on December 20th 2011. There is no indication of this and indeed when he showed up in Qatar in 2013 he was registered as a Ghanaian. Knowledge of his 'naturalisation' and qualification as a Qatari footballer was only made when he was called up in December 2014.

Seems like outright breaking of the FIFA eligibility rules. I mean I'm expecting to see some 5 year naturalisations and some pre-18 minor naturalisations through their acadamies, but I honestly didn't expect to stumble upon a case like this.

**DannyInvincible** · 07/02/2015, 7:04 PM

Originally Posted by Irwin3

Decided to have a quick look at the Qatar squad and straight away I notice the name Mohammed Muntari and decide to investigate. Born in Ghana, moved to Qatar aged 19 in 2013 (from the information available) and is now playing for Qatar since December 2014 having 'naturalized'. How his eligibility can be explained under FIFA eligibility rules, I have no idea?

This Ghanaian articles makes note of him being "coerced into playing for the rich Arab state."
http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePag....php?ID=340205

Also some people speculating on his eligibility here:
http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/...001054/page-49

To get in through the under 18 rule he would have to have been given citizenship before his 18th birthday on December 20th 2011. There is no indication of this and indeed when he showed up in Qatar in 2013 he was registered as a Ghanaian. Knowledge of his 'naturalisation' and qualification as a Qatari footballer was only made when he was called up in December 2014.

Seems like outright breaking of the FIFA eligibility rules. I mean I'm expecting to see some 5 year naturalisations and some pre-18 minor naturalisations through their acadamies, but I honestly didn't expect to stumble upon a case like this.

Hehe, "coerced"; I think that probably has more to do with a poor translation into English of the notion of convincing someone to do something than any Qatari policy of forcing foreigners to move to Qatar and play for their national team. Puzzling find though. Has Muntari definitely been capped by Qatar in a FIFA-sanctioned game?

**Irwin3** · 07/02/2015, 7:13 PM

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Hehe, "coerced"; I think that probably has more to do with a poor translation into English of the notion of convincing someone to do something than any Qatari policy of forcing foreigners to move to Qatar and play for their national team. Puzzling find though. Has Muntari definitely been capped by Qatar in a FIFA-sanctioned game?

Yeah, he played in all 3 of their recent Asian Cup finals defeats in Australia.

**Irwin3** · 07/02/2015, 7:35 PM

There is also another suspicious player for Qatar, Karim Boudiaf. Born in France of Algerian-Moroccan descent. Moved to Qatar in 2010 aged 19. His wikipedia mentions him being called up to the Qatar squad in 2013 after acquiring Qatari nationality. It then mentions him being played in friendlies and later making his official debut in 2014. He too played in all 3 of their Asian Cup matches, they may well have also been his first FIFA recognised caps. Clearly the 5 year residence rule is more of a guideline...

Although technically it depends when in 2010 he moved to Qatar. I presume it was after the european season that he left Nancy and he played his first game in Qatar in September 2010. So I don't think he's quite at 5 years yet and certainly wasn't in 2013.

Edit: Like I suspected he transferred to Qatar following the 2010 season. His transfer date to Qatar is given as 1st July 2010 following his spell with Nancy in France.

**NeverFeltBetter** · 07/02/2015, 10:46 PM

Jeez, a harsher spotlight has to be thrown on that by the media at some point right?

**DannyInvincible** · 08/02/2015, 12:06 AM

I know the media articles and Wikipedia are telling us these guys are naturalised Qatari citizens - and there's no reason to doubt such unextraordinary claims, besides the strange and rather glaring fact that such a means of acquiring citizenship shouldn't actually render them eligible to play for Qatar as there has clearly been no fulfillment of the five-year residency stipulation in either case - but can we rule out with one hundred per cent certainty the extremely unlikely possibility that they are of Qatari descent? I suppose if they were of Qatari descent, they wouldn't have had to move to Qatar or wait a matter of time before becoming eligible as they'd have been eligible from birth; Qatar could have been selecting them years earlier. We probably can almost certainly rule such a possibility out then?...

There is a regulation (8.2) that allows players stripped of an original nationality against their will to play for an association representing a new nationality they have acquired. The regulation does explicitly refer to a player having already played for one association (whilst this isn't quite the case here with either Muntari or Boudiaf, you'd imagine the general principle contained therein would nevertheless apply if it was the case that they'd lost citizenship), but it states that if such a player "permanently loses the nationality of that [original] Country without his consent or against his will due to a decision by a government authority, he may request permission to play for another Association whose nationality he already has or has acquired". I know that some African states, such as Cameroon, and others around the globe prohibit their citizens from possessing dual citizenship along with their native one. Unlikely again, but could Muntari (although he never played for Ghana at any level) have argued that he lost his Ghanaian citizenship against his will in acquiring Qatari citizenship? I'm just trying to think of possible explanations here, although their plausibility is admittedly very suspect.

If that were indeed the case for Muntari, it's difficult to see how it would apply to Boudiaf, mind. He presumably holds French citizenship as well as his Qatari citizenship by virtue of being born in France, and France permits its citizens to hold citizenship of a second state simultaneously, so the possibility that he was, at some point, stripped of his French citizenship (and that this extraordinary item of information also failed to make the news when the media were discussing his eligibility), is exceptionally slim, I would say.

Actually, scratch that theory altogether... I've just had a look here and Ghana also permits dual citizenship: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghanaia...al_Citizenship

I'm trying to think of someone we could email who might be able to shed some light on this? I can't find either player active on Twitter and I doubt FIFA or the Qatari association would bother replying to such a request for info from a member of the public. I think I tried emailing FIFA before for clarification on something eligibility-related and received back zilch. Can anyone think of anyone in the media who'd have the will, means and resources to investigate this perhaps? The British media have little time for FIFA's corruption and questionable practices of late and this has "dodgy" written all over it. Stutts maybe? Do you remember you had a contact who was able to get clarification from FIFA on whether or not Mikel Arteta was eligible to play for England after the British media broadly assumed that he was until the UK Independent(?) corrected the misconception as a direct result of discussion here and your initial probing?

**Irwin3** · 08/02/2015, 12:59 AM

Spot on Danny. I think your reasoning is pretty sound in ruling out those other possibilities.

- Boudiaf was first called up just over 3 years after moving to Qatar aged 23. He then played in various friendlies and I believe unofficial tournaments. I believe the recent Asian Cup games in January were his first FIFA official matches at age 24. List of appearances here: http://www.national-football-teams.c...m_Boudiaf.html

- Muntari moves to Qatar aged 18 or 19 going by the information available. His wiki says he signed for the club in 2012 therefore he was at least 18 when this happened. He made his first appearance in Qatar in 2013 aged 19 so he was certainly in the country by then at the latest. He is then naturalised and receives a call up after roughly 2 years in the country just after his 21st birthday in 2014.

Certainly in the case of both players it looks as though they have 'waited' for the players to play in official matches. Boudiaf 4 years. Muntari maybe 2 full years.

You would think that a journalist somewhere would be interested in having a look at this. Maybe there's a perfectly sensible explanation that we can't see...

**DannyInvincible** · 09/02/2015, 12:27 AM

'Blatter warns Qatar over imported national team': http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/s...w/46146656.cms

Originally Posted by The Times of India

FIFA president Sepp Blatter on Friday warned Qatar against trying to form an imported team for the 2022 World Cup they will host and slammed the foreign team it used at the world handball championships as an "absurdity".

"The nation of 2.2 million faces the huge challenge of forming a competitive national football team by 2022. However, this cannot be achieved by quickly naturalizing players," Blatter said in a commentary for the FIFA Weekly journal.

He said that football's world body does not allow this, unlike the International Handball Federation.

According to Blatter, Qatar's players, who reached last weekend's final at the handball world championships "contradict the spirit of a national team."

The Qatar squad included players born in Bosnia-Hercegovina, France, Spain, Cuba and Montenegro. Several have played for other national teams prior to the tournament, but handball allows players to play for more than one country.

"The fact that sport builds social bridges and brings cultures together cannot be stressed often enough," said the FIFA president, who is campaigning for a new term in May's election.

"However, what happened at this year's men's world handball championship in Qatar stretched this notion to the point of absurdity," he said.

Under FIFA rules, a player has to have been born in the country he represents or his parents have to have been were born there. Otherwise, the player must have spent at least five years living there to qualify to play for the country.

No mention of Muntari or Boudiaf, mind.

**NeverFeltBetter** · 09/02/2015, 12:54 AM

Even discounting journalists, you'd think an Asian Cup opponent would have raised an objection if something murky was going on, right?

**DannyInvincible** · 09/02/2015, 1:21 AM

You'd think so. Unfortunately, losing all three of their games probably didn't help. Even if an opponent was suspicious, would they have the motivation? They'd have little reason to bother getting embroiled in such a matter unless it was worth their while, like needing a result overturned or something. Still difficult to see how Qatar would so blatantly breach the rules though, especially as all eyes will be on them over the next few years.

I've been trying to get some more info on the Qatari naturalisations and stumbled across some interesting unrelated bits and pieces...

This is a fascinating little graphic I came across in the footnotes of this piece on the Asser International Sports Law Blog (the Kearns case got a mention in that) that visualises "the ancestral and international connections between teams" who competed at the 2014 World Cup: http://codehesive.com/wc-ancestry/

I noticed there was no mention of the Irish heritage of any participating players, so was sure to send an update to alert them to the fact that Wayne Rooney, Gary Cahill and Tim Cahill all have Irish grandparentage.

I wasn't aware that David Silva was of Japanese descent. Indeed, here's a photograph I came across elsewhere with his Japanese mother:

By the way, I've also gotten in touch with Asser and a few others via Twitter to see if they'd have any interest in probing further in relation to the Qatari cases that have us stumped.

**DannyInvincible** · 09/02/2015, 1:53 AM

Here's another piece on Gedion Zelalem who was mentioned a few pages back: http://www.espnfc.com/united-states/...gedion-zelalem

It talks about him getting a "FIFA exception" to play for the US so that he doesn't have to fulfill the five-year residency stipulation.

Originally Posted by Doug McIntyre

When the German-born, Maryland-raised Zelalem acquired United States citizenship last month in Washington, most American soccer observers believed it paved the way for him to immediately represent the U.S. in international competition.

Turns out it didn't.

Zelalem is a naturalized American citizen, as opposed to becoming one through lineage or birthright. His parents and his grandparents were also born overseas, meaning he's subject to a little-known stipulation in FIFA's statutes that would require him to live in the U.S. for five years from Jan. 26, his 18th birthday, before suiting up for the Yanks in official matches.

And since the playmaking midfielder -- who lived in Maryland between 2006 and 2013, when he moved to London to join the Gunners -- isn't about to leave Europe any time soon, meeting that requirement as it's written would appear to be non-starter.

But the U.S. Soccer Federation appears to have some recourse when it comes to Zelalem, as FIFA can and does grant exceptions to players who are able to show that their naturalization didn't violate the spirit of the law.

And since Zelalem lived and attended school in the U.S. long before being spotted by an Arsenal scout, getting the green light could end up being a mere formality.

U.S. Soccer president Sunil Gulati doesn't seem worried.

"We're going through the FIFA process and hope to have Gedion eligible by March or April," said Gulati, who also sits on FIFA's executive committee, told ESPN FC on Monday. "We don't expect any issues."

For now, though, Zelalem can't play for the U.S., and his eligibility isn't quite the forgone conclusion it originally appeared to be.

There are many cases of naturalised players representing adopted countries on the basis of having acquired a second nationality before the age of 18, which seemingly negates any need to reside in the territory of a relevant association for five years after the age of 18. It would appear that a nationality acquired before the age of 18 is considered by FIFA to be tantamount to a "permanent nationality not dependent on residence", and I guess it makes sense as the players concerned have formally acquired it before adulthood. As Zelalem became a US citizen in December before turning 18 last month, why should his case be any different? Is the author of that piece mistaken when he states that FIFA "does grant exceptions to players who are able to show that their naturalization didn't violate the spirit of the law"? It's quite an unusual claim. Isn't he, in reality, simply referring to the fact that the nationality of a naturalised under-18 is considered equivalent to a permanent one by FIFA?

**DannyInvincible** · 09/02/2015, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

There is a regulation (8.2) that allows players stripped of an original nationality against their will to play for an association representing a new nationality they have acquired. The regulation does explicitly refer to a player having already played for one association (whilst this isn't quite the case here with either Muntari or Boudiaf, you'd imagine the general principle contained therein would nevertheless apply if it was the case that they'd lost citizenship), but it states that if such a player "permanently loses the nationality of that [original] Country without his consent or against his will due to a decision by a government authority, he may request permission to play for another Association whose nationality he already has or has acquired".

I now know this can't apply to either Muntari or Boudiaf, but, I'm wondering out of curiosity, would a player who has acquired a new nationality after having lost his original citizenship against his will/consent due to a government decision still have to satisfy the criteria outlined in regulation 7 (birth, parentage, grandparentage or five-year residence) in order to become eligible for the association of his new nationality? Or would he simply have to have acquired the new nationality to become eligible? Regulation 8.2 isn't very clear on that actually.

**Irwin3** · 09/02/2015, 8:29 PM

Maybe the Gedion Zelalem thing is down to him not currently residing in the country in which he has acquired citizenship to? Another possibility is because he is asking for the FIFA recognition after his 18th birthday has passed. Or like you say, it might be nothing but the usual time for the paperwork to go through. We shall see.

With respect to losing citizenship cases, I suspect that it would come down to a panel or someone making a judgement largely on the grounds of common sense and ensuring that the 'spirit' of the rules was not broken. I wonder if any such cases have even ever happened? Probably not worth thinking too much about if there are no instances of these case or precedences of what occurred in such cases.

I applaud your tenacity on such issues Danny. To be honest outside a brief investigation when I suspect something may not be all above board I try to not think about these kind of things too much. Hopefully there will ultimately be some kind of resolution either through your efforts of getting the word out, or otherwise.