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Thread: Eligibility Rules, Okay

  1. #21
    First Team Sullivinho's Avatar
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    Stick it and move all stray, relevant posts here in future I say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Predator View Post
    Can you clarify this one for me geysir? I was under the impression that once a player applied FIFA to change association, and the eligibility etc. was reviewed and approved, that was considered to be an official change of association.

    EDIT: ifk has made the same point.
    Based on precedent, a change is recognised as being effected, once the player is capped.
    From IFK´s post
    8. On 11 August 2009, Mr Kearns filed an application before FIFA for a change of
    association team, from the IFA to the FAI. On 2 November 2009, he confirmed to
    FIFA his request, acknowledging the fact that such a change would be
    irreversible.
    9. On 3 November 2009 and in compliance with the applicable FIFA regulations, the
    FAI submitted a formal request to FIFA for Mr Kearns’ change of association team.
    It fulfilled all the administrative requirements at the latest by 21 December
    2009.


    You can read that text anyway which way, but it does not state that applying for a change, or FIFA giving permission for a change, is by itself effecting an actual change. A change is effected when a player is capped. That text is warning a player that once the change has been effected he cannot revert to his previous association.

    The precedent for this is Bobby Zamora for which there is a long chain of undisputed collaborative evidence, but not absolute evidence.
    That Bobby, previously capped by the FA at youth level, applied and received his T&T passport. FIFA web page news report that Bobby´s request to declare for T&T had been processed by FIFA and he was selected by T&T in their squad on 3 occasions (I think). He failed to report in. Later he reverted back to the FA.

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  4. #23
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    Your reading of that geysir is that "acknowledging the fact that such a change would be
    irreversible." should in fact be followed by "...." that its not a closed sentence. I don't see that from the text, the full stop finishing any potential add ons/exceptions/exemptions, but so far you have been right on this so I bow to your greatness. For a witch doctor you have a very good understanding of the intricaties of wording and law.

    The bobby zamora example, proves, assuming there has been no change to any bye laws or articles or whatever you want to call them the above. Its not as if FIFA are going to do one thing once and another another time, even if warner is from tobgao. Its a one glove(which has 5 fingers and each fingers represents a particular case) fits all, stick by the book.
    Last edited by paul_oshea; 08/02/2011 at 3:00 PM.
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  5. #24
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    But still, from that text "the change" - "such a change", it is not defined what the player has to do to effect the change.
    Apart from the Zamora example, we are also aware, that in the other criteria of eligibility, getting capped is the defining action that ties/ associates a player to an association.

  6. #25
    Seasoned Pro ifk101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    But still, from that text "the change" - "such a change", it is not defined what the player has to do to effect the change.
    He acknowledges in correspondence with FIFA that the switch is irreversible.

    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    Apart from the Zamora example, we are also aware, that in the other criteria of eligibility, getting capped is the defining action that ties/ associates a player to an association.
    A competitive cap at senior A level ties a player.

    It is apparent that Zamora renewed his passport and applied for switch of association. Whether he acknowledged in correspondence with FIFA that the switch was irreversible, as afforded Kearns, is unclear.

  7. #26
    First Team EalingGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boovidge View Post
    I think the point is that it's an entitlement from birth, regardless of when the paperwork's done. .
    There is a different between being an Irish National at birth, and being entitled to apply for Irish Nationality from the moment of birth.

    Which is significant because it is self-evident that the entitlement to nationality derived from having been born outside Ireland to an Irish-born grandparent cannot be substantively and inherently the same as that of someone born outside of Ireland to an Irish-born parent, otherwise the Irish government would not make the former "jump through an extra hoop" in order for such a person to establish their Nationality (i.e. Register of Foreign Births).

    And the whole point about the case of NI-born players' eligibility to represent the ROI, even without ROI-born ancestry or residence etc, is that their Irish Nationality does not have to be determined or registered etc - they are automatically Irish Nationals at the moment of their birth. By contrast, those who are first required to Register etc are not Irish Nationals until they have been registered. And Sepp Blatter specifically confirmed, at a meeting of the IFAB in Newcastle, Co. Down in Feb.2009, that because Gibson et al were automatically Irish Nationals "at birth", they satisfied the eligibility criteria for the ROI per Article 15.

    Therefore assuming the above logic is correct, then as far as FIFA is concerned, someone born outside Ireland to an Irish-born Grandparent only, who is required to be entered on the Register, must be "acquiring a new nationality" under Article 17. And Art.17 specifically requires that such applicants must themselves have been born on the territory of the relevant Association, or have a parent/grandparent who was, or have themselves resided there.

    In which case, should the applicant's qualifying grandparent have been born in NI, the only way the applicant qualifies to play for the ROI is if it can be demonstrated that NI constitutes the territory of the FAI. And I believe such a construction to be entirely unsustainable.

    P.S. All of the above relies on a purely rational and literal interpretation of what it states in the relevant FIFA Articles (plus the official Irish Government guidelines on Nationality). The only example to date which seems to contradict such an interpretation is that of Alex Bruce in 2006. I can conceive of two possible explanations as to how/why he was deemed eligible.
    First, there may be something additional in his ancestry etc which is not widely known, such as (Geysir's) step-father link in the Paul Butler case.
    Alternatively, iirc the IFA did not make a Test Case out of Bruce in the same way as they subsequently did with Gibson or Kearns. Therefore it is possible that nobody at FIFA looked too closely at Bruce's particular case. Which may sound unlikely, except that it took a wave of protests by other African Associations to alert FIFA to the fact that both Qatar and Cape Verde were preparing to confer nationality on some second-rate Brazilian players etc. Moreover, I have seen it reported that there are eg Kosovans playing for Albania, or Japanese playing for North Korea, whose eligibility would not bear close scrutiny, should eg Serbia or Japan/S.Korea lodge an official protest.

  8. #27
    First Team The Fly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shakermaker1982 View Post
    This is gonna be funereal!!!
    Fixed.

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifk101 View Post
    He acknowledges in correspondence with FIFA that the switch is irreversible.
    Kearns acknowledges that the change is irreversible but what effects the change is being capped.


    A competitive cap at senior A level ties a player.

    It is apparent that Zamora renewed his passport and applied for switch of association. Whether he acknowledged in correspondence with FIFA that the switch was irreversible, as afforded Kearns, is unclear.
    It was clear enough for Jack Walker and T&T that Zamora was eligible to be picked. He was picked on 3 occasions by T&T. There is not the slightest bit of news that Zamora failed to complete the paperwork.
    That indicates clear enough that Zamora was given the green light by FIFA and he had completed all the paperwork that FIFA require from a player wishing to to make the change. And I assume that Zamora had to complete the same paperwork as Kearns.
    I will keep an open mind on the matter but the overwhelming evidence so far supports my contention.

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by EalingGreen View Post
    P.S. All of the above relies on a purely rational and literal interpretation of what it states in the relevant FIFA Articles (plus the official Irish Government guidelines on Nationality). The only example to date which seems to contradict such an interpretation is that of Alex Bruce in 2006. I can conceive of two possible explanations as to how/why he was deemed eligible.
    First, there may be something additional in his ancestry etc which is not widely known, such as (Geysir's) step-father link in the Paul Butler case.
    Alternatively, iirc the IFA did not make a Test Case out of Bruce in the same way as they subsequently did with Gibson or Kearns. Therefore it is possible that nobody at FIFA looked too closely at Bruce's particular case. Which may sound unlikely, except that it took a wave of protests by other African Associations to alert FIFA to the fact that both Qatar and Cape Verde were preparing to confer nationality on some second-rate Brazilian players etc. Moreover, I have seen it reported that there are eg Kosovans playing for Albania, or Japanese playing for North Korea, whose eligibility would not bear close scrutiny, should eg Serbia or Japan/S.Korea lodge an official protest.
    I reckon that could be it, its sorta what i was getting at with zamora, in a sarcastic way. It might just have been one of those things that never slipped up/came under the radar, and when scrutinised made them act. Or maybe not.

    Im still not sure that entitlement to irish citizenship infers acquiring new nationality though. Any citizen born on the Island of Ireland including you EG is entitled to Irish citizenship, as per Box A. As is anyone with a grandparent born on the Island of Ireland.
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  11. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul_oshea View Post
    Im still not sure that entitlement to irish citizenship infers acquiring new nationality though. Any citizen born on the Island of Ireland including you EG is entitled to Irish citizenship, as per Box A. As is anyone with a grandparent born on the Island of Ireland.
    Bruce was acquiring a new nationality according to his birth entitlement . Up to the time he applied for Irish nationality, legally he had only one nationality with an entitlement to apply for a second.
    This is different to a person born in NI who is automatically a dual national as soon as that person pops out at birth.

    Just FYI , Howard Wells is quoted as claiming he asked the FIFA legal dept. to look into the eligibility of Alex Bruce.
    As it stands now, the eligibility of Alex Bruce is a proven precedent until and unless there is a new ruling which contradicts it.
    There is nothing higher than a binding precedent and it allows us to interpret the rules in the way they are meant to be interpreted.

  12. #31
    First Team Not Brazil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul_oshea View Post
    Im still not sure that entitlement to irish citizenship infers acquiring new nationality though. Any citizen born on the Island of Ireland including you EG is entitled to Irish citizenship, as per Box A. As is anyone with a grandparent born on the Island of Ireland.
    I am automatically a Citizen of the Republic Of Ireland - it's my birthright.


    If you were born in Ireland and your parent(s) were Irish citizens, then you are also an Irish citizen.


    If either of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, then you are automatically an Irish citizen, irrespective of your place of birth.

    Not so, if your claim is via grandparent(s).
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    Is there any ambiguity relating to the requirement to have a biological parent born on the territory (notwithstanding the Alex Bruce precedent / interpretation) or a (no mention of biological) grandparent born on the territory.

    So, for example, Tony Cascarino would not be eligible under today's rule, but his kids might be, no? He was adoped by an Irish woman.

    Is the FIFA "biological parent" wording discriminatory?

    Also, the active interpretation of Article 18.1 (a) is that in order to change association if you have played a competitive underage international for one country is that at the time you played at that level for your first country then you must also have been eligible to play for your "new" country. I'm pretty sure this follows from Ciaran Clark (I'm assuming he played competitive underage footy for England and was not an Irish passport holder at the time).

    Mods - delete if rubbished by Geysir or anyone else!
    Last edited by Stuttgart88; 08/02/2011 at 5:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    Bruce was acquiring a new nationality according to his birth entitlement . Up to the time he applied for Irish nationality, legally he had only one nationality with an entitlement to apply for a second.
    This is different to a person born in NI who is automatically a dual national as soon as that person pops out at birth.
    Agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by geysir View Post
    Just FYI , Howard Wells is quoted as claiming he asked the FIFA legal dept. to look into the eligibility of Alex Bruce.
    As it stands now, the eligibility of Alex Bruce is a proven precedent until and unless there is a new ruling which contradicts it.
    There is nothing higher than a binding precedent and it allows us to interpret the rules in the way they are meant to be interpreted.
    Precedent is only a guide to future action, not a binding constraint, especially if that precedent may be demonstrated to have been the result of oversight or error.

    In which case, under which FIFA Article (15? 17? Some other?) do you consider that players born outside of Ireland, with only an NI-born grandparent, may qualify for ROI?

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    Jesus Stutts, that's a lot of power to be bestowed to my rubbishing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    Is there any ambiguity relating to the requirement to have a biological parent born on the territory (notwithstanding the Alex Bruce precedent / interpretation) or a (no mention of bioligical) grandparent born on the territory.

    So, for example, Tony Cascarino would not be eligible under today's rule, but his kids might be, no? He was adoped by an Irish woman.
    Cas was adopted by his loving English born mother who had an Irish father.
    Afaia the step-parent/ step-grandparent link is as good as adopted parent/ adopted grandparent link, is as good as the birth parent/birth grandparent link

    Also, the active interpretation of Article 18.1 (a) is that in order to change association if you have played a competitive underage international for one country is that at the time you played at that level for your first country then you must also have been eligible to play for your "new" country. I'm pretty sure this follows from Ciaran Clark (I'm assuming he played competitive underage footy for England and was not an Irish passport holder at the time).
    The FIFA rules reads as "he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play".
    Clark was an Irish citizen at the time he was born England. Your kids are Irish citizens.
    Clark's FIFA eligibility status would not be affected even if he had not got it together to apply for an Irish passport at the time he was capped for England.

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  17. #35
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not Brazil View Post





    If either of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, then you are automatically an Irish citizen, irrespective of your place of birth.
    Sure about this? If your Irish parent was born outside Ireland, I don't think you're automatically an Irish citizen, even if the parent is at the time of birth. You still have to be registered.
    Last edited by osarusan; 08/02/2011 at 5:43 PM.

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    I have to go down the foreign birth registration route for my English born kids because I was born in Scotland to Irish parents. Are my kids Irish citizens or only when I get off my ass down to Knightsbridge and complete the foreign birth forms? I'd assume from what Geysir says about Clark, it's the former.

  19. #37
    First Team Not Brazil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osarusan View Post
    Sure about this? If your Irish parent was born outside Ireland, I don't think you're automatically an Irish citizen, even if the parent is at the time of birth. You still have to be registered.
    I was quoting from the link provided earlier.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en...r_descent.html
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  20. #38
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    The following table may help to explain the situation:

    If you are: Then you are:
    A Born in the island of Ireland on or before 31 December 2004 - Entitled to Irish citizenship or you are an Irish citizen
    B Born on the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 - Entitled to Irish citizenship if your parents are Irish. Entitled to Irish citizenship, if your parents are foreign nationals legally resident in the island of Ireland for 3 out of 4 years immediately prior to your birth.
    C Child of A, born outside the island of Ireland - An Irish citizen
    D Child of C and a grandchild of A, born outside the island of Ireland - Entitled to Irish citizenship, but you must first register in the Foreign Births Register
    E a child of D and a great-grandchild of A, born outside the island of Ireland - Entitled to Irish citizenship, by having your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register, but only if your parent D had registered by the time of your birth.
    Stuttgart, if you are C (Born to A), then wouldn't that make your kids D, and therefore you must register them? This would answer NotBrazil's post too?

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    Yes, you're right. My God - my kids are Brits!

  22. #40
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not Brazil View Post
    I was quoting from the link provided earlier.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en...r_descent.html
    That rule only relates to 'citizenship through birth in Ireland'.

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