This caught my eye on the Irish Times' site...
'Why is it so hard to accept an Irish man can be British?': http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...85.html?via=mr
It is one of the things I love most about this country and about being Irish. At this point, most readers will be checking to see if I did indeed mention earlier that I travel on a British passport, which brings me not very neatly to another frequent experience of mine.
Although more of an attitude than a characteristic, there appears to be a widespread belief in the Republic that it is simply not possible to be both Irish and British – as if these were mutually exclusive concepts. According to this school of thought, identity must be singular, although it is never explained how such a notion can be applied to the many millions of people who happen to be Scottish, English or Welsh and also British.
Yet Ireland’s (until quite recently, enthusiastic) membership of the European Union suggested some degree of public acceptance that identity need not be narrowly defined. Moreover, the ready acknowledgement of Irish Americans as fully fledged members of the so-called diaspora also runs counter to the idea that Irish people struggle with the notion of dual or even multiple identities.
Does simply being British bar one from also being Irish, then? Not really, seeing as there is something of an eagerness to include famous British people of Irish descent (Irish-Britons) in the wider national family. And not just those capable of augmenting the national football team.
So what is it that has even some of my Southern friends raising a quizzical eyebrow when, on the odd occasion, I have stated that I consider myself to be as Irish as they are, and British as well? Is it only me? Not quite, but possibly people of my ilk. It seems that only those from Northern Ireland who claim to be British are, to many Southern minds, automatically excluded from being Irish. But even that isn’t strictly true. Consider the furore there was in some sections of the media in the South when Northern golfer Rory McIlroy let it slip that he had always considered himself to be British, and indicated that he intends playing for Britain rather than Ireland in the next Olympic Games.
It was obviously assumed that as someone raised a Catholic, McIlroy should have declared for Ireland. The issue of who the North’s other two famous golfers, Darren Clarke and Graeme McDowell, might choose to play for was never raised.
That Clarke and McDowell are both from Protestant backgrounds was the obvious difference. McIlroy was considered something of a traitor; the other two were not even considered relevant to the question.
So, it would seem that Americans, UK-based Britons, and virtually anyone else from around the world that feels inclined to, are permitted to claim an Irish identity, while the northern British Protestant is not.
It would be easy to attribute this attitude to conscious sectarianism, but my experience of people in the Republic tells me that, except in a tiny minority of cases, this is decidedly not the case (sectarians do not greet members of another religion warmly at the airport or send them gifts), although I do believe it stems from the sectarianism of times past.
Over centuries, it has become ingrained in the Irish Catholic psyche that a Protestant born on the island cannot be considered authentically Irish. And since partition, that a Northern Protestant can’t be Irish to any degree.
its very simple really , he sees his irishness as being a subset of being british, same as scottish welsh and english. Think back to your days in geometry with a big circle (British) and 3 smaller circle inside it ,welsh scottish and English, Though english is nearly as big as the big circle) . Then there is another circle (irish) most see that as comparable to the big british circle on a par with French, German Italien etc, however others see a part of it in the big British circle - a sub set of being british . my 2 cents anyway
The one main flaw of this article, is that of that constituency, a very large number only want to be seen as anything but Irish. And do everything to emphasise their 'Britishness'.
The other irony is that many British people born and raised on the mainland, would only see them as 'exclusively' British or Irish, not both.
Who sees Irish as a subset of British? They might see the circles overlapping, but absolutely nobody thinks people from the Republic of Ireland are British.Originally Posted by Newryrep
A surprisingly large number of people outside of the 2 islands do think that irish is a subset of british though.
Would agree completely with you. The geographical term 'British Isles' and the political division of Ireland don't help this perception as well as the fact we all speak English. Then there is just general ignorance as displayed by people like Russell Barwick.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/othe...y-3195120.html
In fact I would say outside of Western Europe, this general belief is the norm.
A mainly common language is also a major factor.
Just noticed Gastric's point, oops.
Though enough people in Europe seem to realise the difference. Further afield, less so.
Last edited by ArdeeBhoy; 25/11/2012 at 10:11 PM.
I think he's well off the mark with this comment:
"Over centuries, it has become ingrained in the Irish Catholic psyche that a Protestant born on the island cannot be considered authentically Irish."
Plenty of well-known Irish Protestants are revered as "authentically Irish" by those from an Irish Catholic heritage, and they don't include merely the founding fathers of Irish republicanism.
To my mind, there's an independent Irish national identity - the one officially channelled through the Irish state - and then there's an Irish identity that is a British regional one (or perhaps "Northern Irish" would be an appropriate term for it), in the same way English, Scottish and Welsh are British regional identities. If I'm not mistaken, NB considers himself Irish, but it's certainly not the former conception of Irishness with which he identifies. Then, as AB points out, you'd have some unionists who'd be insulted if you even insinuated they might be Irish.
Indeed, I've encountered some people here in England who don't know any better.
Amen, to all that Danny. Especially on the historical point, eg. The United Irishmen.
And yes, we all know the opinions of a certain poster on this one...
I think it's easy to confuse identity with Nationality.
Clearly, in Northern Ireland, the vast majority will view their Nationality as either "British" or "Irish".
One identity which increasingly crosses the divide, as confirmed by various surveys, is "Northern Irish".
I have often been asked when abroad "Are you Irish"...my standard reply is "Yes, I'm Northern Irish".
Those who identify as "Northern Irish" will usually give one of two answers if asked their Nationality - either "Irish" or "British".
I hold absolutely no allegiance whatsoever to the Republic of Ireland...I would never deny that I am "Irish" in the sense that I am from the island of Ireland.
Another point of confusion is that the Republic of Ireland State styles itself "Ireland"...for me, "Ireland" is an island on which there are two jurisdictions.
The religious aspect in all of that, for me, is irrelevant.
I view Catholicism and Protestantism as two very similar strands of exactly the same religion.
Last edited by Not Brazil; 25/11/2012 at 10:53 PM.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Hence the flaws mentioned...
As you are a new part of one of the American subsets, you are certainly in a lose-lose situation.
So is your particular Irish identity synonymous with your Northern Irish identity or is there a distinction between your personal conception of Irishness and Northern Irishness?
Sorry NB, but this is something that gets on my nerves. The Irish state does not 'style' itself 'Ireland'. The name of the state/country is and has been since independence, 'Ireland'. 'Styling' sounds as if the term 'Ireland' is some sort of addition, loose moniker used to describe the state which is inaccurate.
[/QUOTE]Constitutional nameArticle 4 of the Constitution of Ireland, adopted in 1937, provides that "[t]he name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland".[SIZE=2][4][/SIZE] Hence, the Irish state has two official names, Éire (in Irish) and Ireland (in English). de Valera originally intended that Éire would serve as an alternative name in English speech,[SIZE=2][citation needed][/SIZE] and the constitution itself includes the phrase "We the people of Éire", but this practice has long ceased in Ireland itself, though occasionally continuing outside. For official purposes, including in international treaties and other legal documents, and where the language of the documents is English, the Irish government uses the name Ireland. The same is true in respect of the name Éire for documents written in Irish. Similarly, the name of the state is reflected in its institutions and public offices. For example, there is a President of Ireland and a Constitution of Ireland. The name Ireland is also used in the state's diplomatic relations with foreign nations and at meetings of the United Nations.
[edit] Legal description
Since 1949 the Republic of Ireland Act has provided that the Republic of Ireland (or Poblacht na hÉireann in Irish) is the legal description for the state.[SIZE=2][5][/SIZE] However, Ireland remains the constitutional name of the state.
The constitutional name Ireland is normally used. However, the legal description Republic of Ireland is sometimes used when disambiguation is desired between the state and the island of Ireland. In colloquial use this is often shortened to 'the Republic'.
This distinction between description and name was and remains important because the Act was not a constitutional amendment and did not change the name of the state. If it had purported to do so, it would have been unconstitutional. The distinction between a description and a name has sometimes caused confusion. The Taoiseach, John A. Costello introduced the legislation with an explanation of the difference in the following way:[SIZE=2][6][/SIZE]
If I say that my name is Costello and that my description is that of senior counsel, I think that will be clear to anybody who wants to know...[Similarly, the state's] name in Irish is Éire and in the English language, Ireland. Its description in the English language is "the Republic of Ireland."Other countries do not make this distinction. The Constitution of the Italian Republic, for example, simply states that: "Italy is a democratic Republic founded on labour"[SIZE=2][7][/SIZE] and the Constitution of the French Republic similarly states only that: "France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic."[SIZE=2][8][/SIZE]
[edit] European Union
The state joined the European Economic Community (now the European Union) in 1973. Its accession treaty was drawn up in all of the EU's then-official treaty languages (including English and Irish) and, as such, the Irish state joined under both of its names, Éire and Ireland. On 1 January 2007, Irish became an official working language of the EU.[SIZE=2][9][/SIZE] This did not change the name of the Irish state in EU law. However, it has meant for example that at official meetings of the EU Council of Ministers, nameplates for the Irish state now read as Éire – Ireland, whereas previously they would simply have read as Ireland.
The Inter Institutional Style Guide of The Office for Official Publications of the European Communities sets out how the names of the Member states of the European Union must always be written and abbreviated in EU publications. Concerning Ireland, it states that its official names are Éire and Ireland; its official name in English is Ireland; its country code is IE; and its former abbreviation was IRL. It also adds the following guidance: "NB: Do not use 'Republic of Ireland' nor 'Irish Republic'."[SIZE=2][10][/SIZE][SIZE=2].[/QUOTE] [/SIZE]
I do not identify with the Republic Of Ireland State (styling itself "Ireland").
My Irish identity stems from the fact that I am from the island of Ireland - it is, therefore, a Northern Irish identity.
I consider someone from Northern Ireland to be no less from the island of Ireland than someone from the Republic Of Ireland.
I consider my Nationality to be British.
We have been told for many years that Northern Unionists are very confused about their identity - on the contrary, I just think it is very difficult for someone who identifies as Irish, and considers themselves an Irish National, to get their heads around the fact that some people on the island have a different concept of their Irish identity.
I am certainly in no way confused about my identity - however complex it may appear to others.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
The confusion stems, as I've stated before, and something which David Adams failed to address, from the fact that a lot of northern Unionists (that I've experienced) almost universally self-identify with "British" first and foremost and rarely allow any acknowledgement of their shared heritage with nationalists and the "Irish". It is this experience coupled with the opposite one which occurs when talking to English, Scottish and Welsh people who almost always say they are English, Scottish and Welsh first and foremost.
The give-and-take of recognition has to occur on both sides and this current incessant trend within the media to barrack nationalists and southerners into accepting this alien status quo is worrying.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
Research would show differently.
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2010/Commu...s/NINATID.html
The "shared" identity of "Northern Irish" seems to be particularly increasing amongst younger people.
http://www.ark.ac.uk/ylt/2011/Identity/NINATID.html
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
I would say (after all the posts in the other thread) that, after my move to Canada 6 and a half years ago, im firmly a part of the British subset...
How does it feel being part of the Greenland subset? lose-lose?
Greenland? that's in your continent. You North Americans certainly are geographically challenged
Iceland is a fully autonomous Viking/Celtic dissident, super mixed breed.
We don't do subsets here.
According to the former survey, only 4 per cent of NI Protestants identified as "Irish" in 2010. Do you think there would be much difference in that tally and a tally for those who identify as unionists had those surveyed been asked instead for their political affiliations; nationalist, unionist or other?
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 26/11/2012 at 8:22 PM.
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