If, as you say, it would have necessitated an extra piece of legislation to ensure that NI-born players were exempt from Article 6 and could play for the ROI, then in what way would it have been meaningful? It would basically give the IFA nothing, wouldn't it? Perhaps I've picked you up wrong.Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Last edited by osarusan; 24/05/2012 at 12:35 PM.
Without a necessary amendment to article 6 (what was then article 16) or some additional legislation marking out the proposal as being exempt from the application of said article, FIFA's 2007 proposal aimed at solving the dispute between the IFA and FAI would otherwise have fallen foul of article 6 as Irish nationality would have subsequently been regarded as a shared nationality. Thus, without also intending to make some additional legislative change, such a proposal would have been meaningless and would not have made logical sense. In other words, in order for it to have been meaningful, it would have logically necessitated further legislative change.
We're back to my original question - in what way does the proposal, including the necessary exemption, placate the IFA? How does it offer consolation, or benefit?
Without any exemption, it would have been incredibly meaningful for the IFA indeed, but I agree that this was never going to be the case.
FIFA proposed it under the mistaken belief or hope that it might satisfy them as it would have permitted Irish nationals born south of the border to play for NI by sole virtue of their Irish nationality. At the time, FIFA obviously believed that this was a good way of balancing what the IFA, and possibly FIFA themselves, perceived to be a lack of equilibrium or a "one-way situation". Whilst the FAI had no problem with the proposal, the IFA rejected it, obviously seeing little consolation or merit in it.
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 24/05/2012 at 1:11 PM.
It would of meant anyone " born on the territory of the Republic of Ireland and holding the Irish nationality could either play for the [FAI] or the [IFA]"
Which wouldn't of been much benefit. Because I'd guess if you went around to every 19 year old in Ireland, who couldn't previously play for NI before this amendment, which national team would you like to play for, my suspicion is:
Northern Ireland would be a pointless answer.
Which would have meant Article 6 kicking in, unless exception was made for Republic Of Ireland Nationals.
Such an exception being legislated for would have opened a huge can of worms for FIFA.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
I have absolutely no idea on the matter if a policy of discriminating with available young talent based on loyalty aspiration, which is nationality based, could be proven to conflict with anything in article 3. Never thought about that. Most probably it does not conflict with the statute right of the dual national player to chose because the player can change at any time, as long as he willing to endure his new assumed status - a lying sectarian bigot (a case for which is constructed afterwards by a selective process of cynical interpretation).
Any conflict with Football for All which aspires to create the conditions that players would chose to want to play for the IFA of their own volition?
As I wrote, there are a number of factors, perceptions of bias, a history of institutionalised discrimination, the incompetence of the IFA - including the self righteous haughty incompetence that can be found throughout, then you have a selection process mixed in with a Football for All campaign.There are many people in Derry who perceive an anti-Derry bias within the IFA. That's a bit unfair on the IFA, however; what they're also failing to highlight are the other anti-Derry biases within the FAI, UEFA, FIFA, the Stormont government, the UK government and the EU.
All sounds very harmonious
Last edited by geysir; 24/05/2012 at 1:24 PM.
I think you misunderstand what "Football For All" is about - it's not all about Nationalists and their particular sensitivities.
It most definately is not about pleading with players who don't want to play for Northern Ireland.
"Concentrate on players who want to play for Northern Ireland" we were told.
Absolutely bang on the money.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
I'm suprised at you NB. You just can't seem to see our point of view. We don't think Article 6 would of come into play as FIFA were suggesting a "specific and unique agreement". You don't bring in a rule saying everyone in Ireland can play for NI, if the net effect is that the only Irish people who could, would be the ones born(parents and grandparents) in the 6 counties, effectively the same people who already qualify.
Here's the full proposal
So according to the proposal, you only had to be born in ROI and satisfy Article 15 in order to represent NI. No mention of Article 16, it was a unique solution.“The current situation is such that, for the Irish Football Association, players can choose also to play for the representative teams of the Football Association of Ireland but the vice-versa is not possible.
With the objective, as always, to find an amicable solution which is acceptable for both member associations concerned as well as for FIFA, the FIFA Legal Committee has now made the following new proposal: any player holding the nationality of the Republic of Ireland and consequently, in principle, being eligible to play for the representative teams of the Football Association of Ireland, that was born on the territory of the Republic of Ireland, would, by agreement between the two associations, also be eligible for the representative teams of the Irish Football Association.
In other words, every player born on the territory of Northern Ireland, holding the UK nationality and being entitled to a passport of the Republic of Ireland or born on the territory of the Republic of Ireland and holding the Irish nationality could either play for the Football Association of Ireland or the Irish Football Association, under the condition that all other relevant prerequisites pertaining to a player’s eligibility for a specific association team (see FIFA Statutes – Art. 15 of the Regulations governing the FIFA Statutes are fulfilled.
FIFA has informed the Irish Football Association and the Football Association of Ireland today (November 6) about this proposal and asked both associations for a feedback.
Ultimately, it will be up to the FIFA Executive Committee to take a decision.”
Edit, you did mention the exception. Apologies.
I think it's safe to say that if NI did try to accept that proposal now, nearly 5 years later, with the hope of it impacting Article 6(as it is now), they are hopelessly deluded.
Last edited by Closed Account; 24/05/2012 at 1:43 PM.
Indeed, CAS described it as a "specific and unique agreement" in paragraph 44 of Kearns. This indicates that it would have transcended the pre-existing eligibility rules.
That's not exactly what NB is suggesting the IFA are contemplating doing though. NB has suggested that the IFA are not interested in accepting the 2007 proposal, but are instead contemplating lobbying FIFA to regard Irish nationality as shared nationality with article 6 still applying, thus rendering Irish nationals born north of the border ineligible for the FAI.
Articles 15 & 16 (now Articles 5 & 6) are inextricably linked.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
I think that is exactly what NB suggested the IFA are contemplating doing though.
Anyway, it was a non sensical proposal and I don't know why the FAI would of accepted it, other than being magnanimous, in the first place.
Why should I, who's hardly ever set foot in Northern Ireland, be eligible for their football team, any more than I should be for any other country. That's the other reason NI revisiting the proposal is ridiculous. They turned it down in the first place for the right reasons. If you're not happy with lads from NI, who don't want to play for you, putting on the NI jersey, how would you feel about some Cork lad with a Dublin persecution complex, lining up in Windsor Park.
The pre-existing statutes wouldn't have applied to the specific and unique 2007 arrangement as the proposal wouldn't have made sense otherwise given how FIFA worded it. The proposal would have been exempt from their application.
From what NB has said in relation to current IFA thinking, however, I understand the IFA may now seek to have FIFA apply article 6 to Irish nationality (which the IFA will attempt to argue is a nationality shared by both the FAI and IFA) in order to render Irish nationals born north of the border ineligible for the FAI and eligible only for the IFA. Maybe he can clarify?
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 24/05/2012 at 2:30 PM.
I'm not in a position to clarify anything in that regard - I heard a whisper that the IFA were considering re-visiting the issue, centred on Citizenship of the Republic Of Ireland being suffice to be eligible for Northern Ireland.
We all know from pre Kearns ruling times that the "prize" the IFA sought was for Article 16 to be applicable to Northern Irish born players wanting to play for the Republic Of Ireland.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Indeed, which is why they rejected the 2007 proposal as it clearly wouldn't have rendered Irish nationals born north of the border ineligible to play for the FAI.
A possible return to their former mode of thinking - attempting to have northern-born Irish nationals rendered ineligible to play for the FAI - would be:
- bizarre, deluded and ill-advised in that this specific line of reasoning would be doomed to inevitable failure due to the fact there is no logical, legal or factual basis to the claim that Irish nationality is a nationality of the IFA. How could an association possess two nationalities; one of them being the nationality of the association of an external jurisdiction?
- diplomatically contentious and provocative in that it would amount to an attempt to claim a sovereign, independent and unrelated body of nationality law - that being the nationality law of the state of Ireland - as being somehow relevant to the IFA, or as being a nationality of the IFA, in other words. If the IFA went ahead with this, I'd envisage not just the two associations, but also foreign ministers and the like, getting embroiled in a very heated and politicised debate.
- insulting to Irish nationals born north of the border, the valid identity of whom the IFA had since Kearns apparently come to acknowledge, accept and work with. Just like dragging Kearns off to CAS, this would, once again, make the IFA look like stubborn unionists hell-bent on depriving nationalist footballers of their right to declare for the association, the FAI, that represents their country, Ireland. As a second attempt, this would be even worse. They might have been able to plead that the first attempt to stifle nationalist footballers' rights was tinged with a degree of ignorance, but not this time; this strategy would be much more contrived and devious.
It would be a disastrous idea for the IFA to pursue all round.
I agree, but if Citizenship of the Republic Of Ireland qualified a player in FIFA's eyes to play for more than one Association - namely the FAI & IFA - Article 6 would need amending, given the current wording of Articles 5 and 6. If amended to cater solely for Republic Of Ireland Citizens, it would potentially create a huge headache for FIFA.
For example, what about a young Northern Irish lad with no blood ties to England - but for footballing reasons wants to play for them?
Why should a Republic Of Ireland Citizen from Cork, with no blood ties to Northern Ireland, be allowed to play for Northern Ireland - but a young British Citizen from Northern Ireland, with no blood ties to England, is not allowed to play for them?
That's not equality.
Anyway, I want the IFA to work within the rules as they are - and feel that my proposals to concentrate on players who want to play for Northern Ireland is a sound basis for progress going forward, and to the mutual benefit of all parties.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
It depends on what the aim of making Irish nationality a shared nationality would be. It would have required amending under the 2007 proposal (or some addendum could have been passed stating that the specific situation transcended the pre-existing regulatory framework) as the aim of FIFA then was to enable Irish nationals born both north and south of the border to play for both the FAI and IFA on account of what would have become a shared nationality, but I don't think it would require amending if FIFA were to accept this possible new IFA proposal as the aim of the IFA would be to deprive Irish nationals born north of the border of eligibility to represent the FAI due to the intended continued application of article 6.
Indeed. The proposal clearly wasn't rooted in any concern for logic or equality, even if FIFA did mistakenly believe the proposal would balance what they formerly perceived to be a lack of equilibrium, or a "one-way situation", as it was described at the time. Its rationale was rooted solely in a misguided attempt to reach a unique and specific settlement in order to placate the IFA's protestations.Why should a Republic Of Ireland Citizen from Cork, with no blood ties to Northern Ireland, be allowed to play for Northern Ireland - but a young British Citizen from Northern Ireland, with no blood ties to England, is not allowed to play for them?
If - as they seemingly were prepared to do - FIFA were to allow a player from Cork, for example, with only Republic of Ireland Citizenship to be eligible for Northern Ireland:
In the context of the guiding principle of eligibility, Article 5, what Nationality would be then permitting that player to represent Northern Ireland?
A: Citizenship of the Republic Of Ireland.
Would Citizenship of the Republic Of Ireland alone alllow you to play for more that one Association, as dealt with by current Article 6?
A: Yes - two Associations ie. the FAI & IFA
Here's what FIFA submitted to CAS during the Kearns case (Para 22):
"Regarding the eligibility of players to be selected for a representative team,
FIFA implemented a set of rules, which are clear and apply uniformly to
each of its 208 member associations. Those rules are global and were not
designed for the purpose of a single situation, i.e. not specifically for the
Republic of Ireland / Northern Ireland situation"
On close inspection of Article 5 - the fundamental tenet of eligibility - were FIFA telling us they were going to re-write the script? Because, be absoltely clear, they would have had to.
Were FIFA going to open up a potentially much bigger headache for themselves, just to deal with Irish Nationality, and angry Irish Nationalists?
A: I doubt it very much - I suspect they'd have expected their "global" eligibility rules to apply, when the dust settled.
Were FIFA talking out of their hoop when making their ill thought out nonsensical suggestion of a solution?
A: Yes. I suspect they wanted to be seen to be "helpful".
Last edited by Not Brazil; 24/05/2012 at 7:04 PM.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
At the time of the compromise in 2007, the eligibility rules were scattered around various pages and maybe it was possible to make a separate agreement and have it annexed to the statutes.
In 2008 came a shift in FIFA's approach and every eligibility rule was incorporated into the statutes.
Maybe what was possible to do in 2007 is not possible since then.
There is not a snowball in hells chance of an agreement being imposed on an association without their volition and the FAI are not going to settle for less than basic article 5 eligibility for all players born on the island and all first generation born anywhere.
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