Eligibility Rules, Okay

[gastric]

Back in Martin's day the people of Northern Ireland were expected (or jump to) to do what the unionist politicians prescribed.

Seanfhear, you're in big trouble now!

[geysir]

Probably explains the in/famous quote attributed to John Delaney about winning the "battle" for Gibson but not the eligibility "war" all those years ago.

You are a victim of the OWC propaganda campaign
Delaney did not say that in reference to winning the battle for Gibson but losing the eligibility war, no matter how many times Ealing Green tried to offer it.
I challenged EG at the time and offered plenty of proof but the mouse had not the grace to concede the issue.
Delaney was returning from Zurich midweek and also facing Stan's removal, when it was claimed he spoke those words at the airport.
Total nonsense.
Delaney was interviewed on the Saturday on RTE (Marian F) where he was 100% confident that the FAI's interpretation of the eligibility rules, was in fact correct.


This reply from FIFA on this matter is clear enough.
But Joe maybe just has to send off a follow up question as to whether the cap has to be competitive or not for the new association in order to bind him - effecting the change

[Not Brazil]

NB, One of your recent posts has highlighted one of the fundamental points of difference between us in regards to this issue. I personally have no regrets over players representing us and then later changing their decisions.

One of the fundamental differences is that the FAI don't have a big problem with players entering their international system harbouring childhood dreams of representing another Association.

The IFA do, and that must be addressed.

The logical way of addressing it is by encouraging/facilitating those players with dreams of representing the FAI to do that at Under 19 level, and having a selection policy centred on players whose ambition is to represent the IFA at senior International level.

[DannyInvincible]

Martin O’Neill , ultimately, feels the final decision has to be left with the individual player.
Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/k...#ixzz1m2ZmCDBh

Martin goes on to say that "No matter what tendency you might have yourself, you have to give the individual that choice. I never had that choice. "

Did he have a choice?

He certainly did, assuming he was in possession of Irish citizenship, which would have been available to him from 1956 onward. He obviously wasn't aware of the choice. As far back as at least 1946, FIFA's general eligibility principle has never been based on territory of birth. For example, the 1946 rule read:

"The players (NB. of International Matches) must be selected by the National Associations concerned and be subjects of the country they represent."

The thrust of the general principle remains the same today, albeit tightened somewhat to counter what FIFA have deemed abuse, but there's no indication that birthplace will ever feature as a general principle criterion.

[DannyInvincible]

You are a victim of the OWC propaganda campaign

I did say it was merely attributed to him.

This reply from FIFA on this matter is clear enough.
But Joe maybe just has to send off a follow up question as to whether the cap has to be competitive or not for the new association in order to bind him - effecting the change

So a player could play in competitive under-age fixtures for as many associations as he is eligible? That doesn't seem right.

[Scooby Doo]

He certainly did, assuming he was in possession of Irish citizenship, which would have been available to him from 1956 onward. He obviously wasn't aware of the choice. As far back as at least 1946, FIFA's general eligibility principle has never been based on territory of birth. For example, the 1946 rule read:

"The players (NB. of International Matches) must be selected by the National Associations concerned and be subjects of the country they represent."

The thrust of the general principle remains the same today, albeit tightened somewhat to counter what FIFA have deemed abuse, but there's no indication that birthplace will ever feature as a general principle criterion.

Thanks for that.

Also, I'm well aware that the GFA has had nothing to do with the ability of NI-born Irish nationals to play for us. However, is there a reason/theory as to why their has been an acceleration in the numbers of northern players declaring for the FAI from the early 2000s. I mean, do you think that the enshrining of/reiterating the provision to choose Irish nationality, in the GFA, has galvanised nationalist footballers to assert their identity with greater fervour than before - therefore, increasing the number of those throwing their lot in with Ireland?

[Not Brazil]

Can someone list which Northern Irish born players have chosen to represent the FAI, before having previously represented the IFA at Under 19 and above, since the GFA galvanised nationalist footballers to assert their identity with greater fervour than before?

[DannyInvincible]

Thanks for that.

Also, I'm well aware that the GFA has had nothing to do with the ability of NI-born Irish nationals to play for us. However, is there a reason/theory as to why their has been an acceleration in the numbers of northern players declaring for the FAI from the early 2000s. I mean, do you think that the enshrining of/reiterating the provision to choose Irish nationality, in the GFA, has galvanised nationalist footballers to assert their identity with greater fervour than before - therefore, increasing the number of those throwing their lot in with Ireland?

The GFA certainly may have changed mentalities and heightened nationalists' awareness of their rights as regards to their identity/nationality, but I think the prevalence of northern-born players for the FAI has increased as a result of the 2004 rule-change where FIFA introduced the option to switch association once before the age of 21. After that age, a player was tied to any original association for whom he had already played. Prior to 2004, players who had started out in the youth set-up of the IFA would have been limited to remaining with that association as no rule existed to permit a switch. As most northern-born players start out in the IFA youth set-ups for obvious reasons of geography, convenience, access or whatever, none of these would have had the later opportunity to make any decision with regard to representing the FAI. Of course, FIFA later lifted the age-cap completely in 2009 so nowadays a player of any age is free to switch once. Alex Bruce was 26 when he switched from the FAI to the IFA, for example. Just my theory...

[Not Brazil]

As most northern-born players start out in the IFA youth set-ups for obvious reasons of geography, convenience, access or whatever.

Not good enough reasons, I'm afraid, at Under 19 and above.

The reason should be that the player holds ambitions to represent Northern Ireland throughout their International career.

[geysir]

I did say it was merely attributed to him.

No revisionist cop outs are accepted

So a player could play in competitive under-age fixtures for as many associations as he is eligible? That doesn't seem right.

"if a player has changed associations, but never played for the other association (youth matches not included as they are not counting as senior caps) he can switch to the other one again. Meaning, as long as a player has not played for any senior side he can switch associations as long as he wants to. Besides that, a change comes into effect when FIFA approves it."

There is the use of one too many 'others'.

The only change is to the assumption that an underage competitive cap meant you have used up a choice.
That reply states that a senior cap is binding, just the question remains if it has to be a senior competitive cap for his new association or does an 'A' senior friendly count as effecting the change. At least the reply confirms that it's the cap that effects the change.
And that FIFA approval of the request is not using up the players one chance to switch.

Young players are anyway not going to be chopping and changing endlessly. For a start, they can't switch and play during a competition.
And it's probably unheard of that a young player plays competitively for country A, switches and plays competitively for country B before going back to country A to play competitive underage for them. That scenario is a non issue.

[DannyInvincible]

Not good enough reasons, I'm afraid, at Under 19 and above.

The reason should be that the player holds ambitions to represent Northern Ireland throughout their International career.

I was being merely descriptive rather than normative.

[DannyInvincible]

Young players are anyway not going to be chopping and changing endlessly. For a start, they can't switch and play during a competition.
And it's probably unheard of that a young player plays competitively for country A, switches and plays competitively for country B before going back to country A to play competitive underage for them. That scenario is a non issue.

In theory or practice? And can a player play competitively for country A, switch and play competitively for country B before switching back to country A (or even switching to country C) to plat at senior level? The e-mail appears to suggest so if the interpretation is correct.

[Not Brazil]

In theory or practice? And can a player play competitively for country A, switch and play competitively for country B before switching back to country A (or even switching to country C) to plat at senior level? The e-mail appears to suggest so if the interpretation is correct.

Where does FIFA Statute 8 (b) sit with that interpretation?

[DannyInvincible]

Where does FIFA Statute 8 (b) sit with that interpretation?

Article 8.1(b) prohibits switching players from playing in the same competition for two different associations.

ARTICLE 8 – Change of association

1. If a player has more than one nationality, or if a player acquires a new nationality, or if a player is eligible to play for several representative teams due to nationality, he may, only once, request to change the association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the association of another country of which he hold nationality, subject to the following conditions:

a) He has not played a match (either in full or part) in an official competition at “A” international level for his current association, and at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for his current association, he already had the nationality of the representative team for which he wishes to play.

b) He is not permitted to play for his new association in any competition in which he has already played for his previous association.

Does that allow for a player to play competitively for an association at, say, under-19 level before switching to another and representing them competitively at under-21 level before switching back to the original association or to a third association and playing at senior level? It appears it would.

[geysir]

A player has to apply to switch, even if he has just played underage for his original association, before he can play for his new association.
The switch is not blessed until he's capped at senior level.

Easy peasy

[EastTerracer]

He certainly did, assuming he was in possession of Irish citizenship, which would have been available to him from 1956 onward. He obviously wasn't aware of the choice. As far back as at least 1946, FIFA's general eligibility principle has never been based on territory of birth. For example, the 1946 rule read:

"The players (NB. of International Matches) must be selected by the National Associations concerned and be subjects of the country they represent."

The thrust of the general principle remains the same today, albeit tightened somewhat to counter what FIFA have deemed abuse, but there's no indication that birthplace will ever feature as a general principle criterion.

Danny, you are correct that, in retrospect, this option was always available to players under the rules. However, it seems that neither association, any of the supporters or any of the players were aware that this was the rule.

There would have been many players who would have made this choice in the past if they knew it was available but, the general understanding of the rules was that those born North of the border did not have the option of declaring for the Republic of Ireland. If someone had even asked the question thirty years earlier then I think we would have seen a number of high profile names declare for the FAI over the years.

[Not Brazil]

Does that allow for a player to play competitively for an association at, say, under-19 level before switching to another and representing them competitively at under-21 level before switching back to the original association or to a third association and playing at senior level? It appears it would.

The rules state that a player may request a change of Association only once.

[DannyInvincible]

The rules state that a player may request a change of Association only once.

That's true, so how is a player permitted to request a switch back to his original association?

[gastric]

Not good enough reasons, I'm afraid, at Under 19 and above.

The reason should be that the player holds ambitions to represent Northern Ireland throughout their International career.

How do you then reconcile your opinion with the FIFA rules that players can change then? Isn't this the reason FIFA lets players change associations even if they have played friendlies?

Perhaps you are seeing this issue too closely through a NI point of view rather than seeing the global picture?

[geysir]

It would be totally farcical if a player could only make one request.
How would that work


What the law means is that a player can only change once and a change is defined by getting a senior cap.