Members have the option to edit their own posts.Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
It's fourth from the right at the bottom (next to reply). You can't miss it.
Last edited by The Fly; 09/12/2011 at 12:49 AM.
Aren't children born in the UK to a British citizen or to someone settled in the UK, automatically British citizens? St Ledger for example is definitely a British Citizen and I can't understand your motive in refuting it.
They clearly are British citizens, I don't see any reason to try and deny that. Dual nationality is a fairly simple concept.
Hmm. But they don't like many others born in Britain, have a British passport.
So once those people leave Britain, how would they remotely be 'British'?? The passport labels them an "Irish Citizen", on the inside front cover.
No probs with SStL, but he has an Irish passport to play for Ireland. How is he now 'British' ??
Know loads of 2G Passport-holders, with no British blood. Are they all so by default? That's a new one on me.
Maybe, but their passport is the same as mine. They have no British passport or ID (maybe an NHS medical no?), they are residents nothing more.
I'm not sure where you're going with this, AB. Britain is similar to Ireland in that it grants citizenship unconditionally and doesn't revoke it. All English-born players for Ireland have dual British and Irish citizenship.
Ok, well no-one has ever offered my sisters born in the North any type of 'British' citizenship, nor would I ever expect them to.
Though it might well be their entitlement should they wish. Nor have they to my many 2G born friends.
They may too have an entitlement, but they are oblivious to this. So you can hardly say the Brit.establishment makes a big deal of seeking them out, whatever's "enshrined" etc.
Perhaps as an 'example', they try to embarrass Irish or other soccer players?
Though they seem far more keen to recruit dubious white Saffas to their cause.
Last edited by ArdeeBhoy; 09/12/2011 at 3:01 AM.
They do not need to be offered it because they already have it, by virtue of being born in the UK. This applies whether they have an Irish passport or not.
If they wish to address this, they would have to contact the relevant government department to have their British citizenship revoked.
Ok, take your word on that.
Though the evidence of people I know in Britain suggests otherwise.
Including people born there now living abroad.
So, to cut to the chase, you have no statistics to back up your previous assertion.
Righty ho.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
It'll be interesting to see if any of the South's underage players tweet their support for England next summer.
Last edited by Not Brazil; 09/12/2011 at 11:02 AM.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Once again, you confuse holding a Passport with Citizenship.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Deary me.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
I'm afraid they're right, AB. British citizenship is acquired automatically by those born to other British citizens and those legally-settled in the UK. Possession of a passport would just be a form of proof of citizenship, but is by no means a pre-requisite in order for a British citizen to be considered a British citizen. (If I happened to lose my passport for a week tomorrow, I'd be dismayed to hear that my Irish citizenship was to be revoked for that week, but, of course, that isn't the case.) British citizenship can only be renounced by a declaration to the British Home Secretary.
Not quite right The Fly.
The "official" National Anthem of the United Kingdom & Northern Ireland is God Save The Queen.
Unlike Scotland and Wales, we don't have an uniquely Northern Irish Anthem used at sporting fixtures.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Kane Ferdinands Facebook page backs that up!
I have a head only Snow White would love
Unless your skin blisters were born in Donegal, I've bad news for them.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Nor your own to disprove it...
Accept what you say, so that makes all EU citizens there, Brits by default? As they are 'legally settled'.
And the British have made it very difficult for some of their citizens to be such eg.staying in the country, especially if their parents weren't born there.
Or are non-white, or both.
I hadn't made a conscious attempt to demean it, as John Hewitt might have said.
If anything, I was specifically intending to remain open to your profession; it was implicit recognition of your view in the sense that I have a personal idea of what it is to be Irish whilst I was acknowledging that you also have a personal idea of what it is to be Irish. Neither need be construed as myths simply because I failed to describe them both as "factual" or whatever. We all have different senses of what it means to be Irish; whether some are closer to some quasi-objective sense of Irishness is what is up for debate, I suppose. If I come across as being restrictive, it's more likely because I believe there to be some traits that are inherently incompatible with a quasi-objective form of Irishness I believe to exist rather than intentionally setting out to offend or insult. Our personal notions may exhibit differences but I don't think I set your identity on a pedestal below my own sense, or I didn't intend to "rank" them at least; I was merely trying to explore their exact nature and differentiate if needs required rather than rank. Likewise, when I use the word "sense" below, it's not part of a mindful attempt to invalidate your Irish identity or doubt its veracity. I thought it as good a word as any to describe what I see to be a different type/brand/idea/variety/whatever of Irishness from my own type/brand/idea/variety/whatever.
Are we in agreement that the two are probably quite distinct though or do you interpret my sense of Irishness as being one and the same as yours? If you acknowledge they are distinct by definition, then what terminology, if any, should we use to describe them respectively in recognition of the distinction? I'd refer to what I perceive to be your version as "Northern Irish", "British Irish" (as a singular entity separate from British alone rather than the dual/plural one individuals like Sean St. Ledger exemplified above possess) or maybe even the "Ulster(-Scots?) nation" to throw out a few terms for sake of distinction, but I have a feeling you'd object to that and re-assert that the aspect of your identity which we are discussing is simply Irish and nothing else. I have difficulty, however, reconciling as one what I see to be two exclusive identities, just as French or German cannot be also be Irish.
As part of some research I undertook recently for something I wrote on the roles that landscape and gender played in the formation of Irish national identity since the Irish state's independence, I happened to read an essay, 'Landscape, Space and Gender: Their Role in the Construction of Female Identity in Newly Independent Ireland', by Síghle Bhreathnach-Lynch. I thought it was quite interesting and somewhat relevant to this discussion, funnily enough. In brief, she wrote of how the Irish state projected a new and distinct sense of Irishness in order to emphasise an identity very much unique from that of Britain, its former ruler. Thus, Ireland was portrayed as "a bleak but beautiful countryside, peopled exclusively by a sturdy, Gaelic-speaking, Catholic people" and such a projection acted to provide an identity that was "instantly recognizably different from that of its former ruler Britain, which was perceived as urban, English-speaking and Protestant". Modern Irish identity - that channelled through the Irish state - is obviously rooted in the political history of Irish nationalism which sought to separate and distinguish Irishness from its former British umbrella. I suppose my own idea of what it is to be Irish is inevitably wrapped up in such a projection due to my cultural background and cues, although I still maintain it as primarily civic in nature rather than "ethnic"; my Catholicism has long since lapsed into an agnostic atheism, for example, and whilst I'd love to speak the Irish language with the fluency my mother exhibits, I don't believe that only Gaels are fit to be referred to as Irish. Your contrasting version stems from a seemingly-essential link with Britishness (not to suggest it's necessarily out-dated or obsolete either given the fact that part of the island still remains a part of the United Kingdom). I guess both are products of an Irish political reality whilst simultaneously helping to reinforce or bolster certain political ends.
As an aside, I do wonder if it's possible to have a nationality/national identity entirely free of any "ethnic" considerations, however? Most modern Western states purport to espouse a form of civic nationalism but if you take a look at their respective nationality laws, you will note that they do have to invoke limitations at some point which are fundamentally based on what you might called "ethnic" considerations. Not everyone born in France or the UK, for example, can declare themselves British or French by virtue of that simple fact; they must also satisfy other criteria rooted in a more ethnic sense of what it constitutes to be a national.
To me, it seems that the "distinction" of being Irish in such a context positions it as a subordinate or ancillary identity, not that that necessarily makes it non-Irish, but it is a distinction under the British umbrella. Can this sense of Irishness ever be separated from its seemingly-inherent Britishness? Is it malleable in that sense or would extracting it from its British overcoat make it something else entirely and no longer the identity with which you identify? Is it a sense of Irishness that could ever be reconcilable with the idea of a united Ireland independent from Britain/an Irishness completely independent of Britishness, I suppose is what I'm getting at?"We add to the glory of being British, the distinction of being Irish" - to quote David Trimble, paraphrasing Emerson Tennant.
Which Ulster would that be though?As John Hewitt wrote:
"I am a Belfast man, I am an Ulster man, I am British and I am Irish, and those last two are interchangeable, and I am European and anyone who demeans any one part of me demeans me as a person".
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 09/12/2011 at 11:46 AM.
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