QuoteOriginally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Exactly the point I was making in response to Mr Toasht.
Er, those born in England perhaps?Which 'British citizens', might they be?
Darren Gibson? Shane Duffy?
DarrOn Gibson and Shane Duffy are not English, and their British Citizenship does not permit them to play for England.
Are you getting confused again?
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Exactly the point I was making in response to Mr Toasht.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Nothing was made up. Though perhaps you can present any statistics whichcontradict this?
As for how people see their national identity is up to them.
The kingdom you so cravenly cling to has long seen very disparate views for centuries. So a 'united' Ireland would be hardly any different to a 'united' kingdom of Britain and random colonies...
You would appear to be actually.
Who are all these 'British citizens' who played for Ireland?
And clearly you have once again conveniently forgot all the North's players born or from outside the Six Counties.
Well, I would totally refute the assertion the "at least 85% or more" of Unionists in Northern Ireland see themselves as exclusively British.Nothing was made up. Though perhaps you can present any statistics which
As for how people see their national identity is up to them.
This is interesting:
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2009/Commu...s/NINATID.html
Can you now provide some statistics to back up your assertion?
Of course, national identity is "up to them" - although, you seemingly wishing to deny my sense of Irishness, and seeming insistance that being British and Irish are mutually exclusive, smacks of you thinking it's not really "up to them" - even though it is an individual's absolute right to identify as such.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Jesus wept.
I've already answered that - the South's players born in England, for example, are British Citizens.
They would be enjoying a senior international career with England if they were good enough - the charge made by Mr Toasht was that Nationalists born in Northern Ireland only play for Northern Ireland because they are not good enough to play for the South. People in glass houses, eh?
I haven't forgot at all about British Citizens who were not born in Northern Ireland, but who represent Northern Ireland - having met the necessary FIFA eligibility requirements.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Slight generalisation there which fails to make reference to Ciaran Clark. There are other instances of British citizens wishing to play for Ireland over their British country of birth i.e. Aiden McGeady and James McCarthy. Leon Best was also quite a hot prospect when he pledged his international career to Ireland. Jack Grealish is plying his trade with Ireland too even though he is regarded as the hottest prospect the Aston Villa academy has seen in quite some time. The cases of Sean McGinty and Michael Keane qualify less so, bearing in mind the prospect of a senior international career with England may have turned their heads of late.Jesus wept.
I've already answered that - the South's players born in England, for example, are British Citizens.
They would be enjoying a senior international career with England if they were good enough - the charge made by Mr Toasht was that Nationalists born in Northern Ireland only play for Northern Ireland because they are not good enough to play for the South. People in glass houses, eh?
I haven't forgot at all about British Citizens who were not born in Northern Ireland, but who represent Northern Ireland - having met the necessary FIFA eligibility requirements.
Clark found it easier to identify with Ireland in a way that another young British citizen such as Shane Duffy did not identify with Northern Ireland.
Last edited by Olé Olé; 08/12/2011 at 6:01 PM.
Would Ciaran Clarke have made a Senior International career with England? Maybe, maybe not.
Would Leon Best have made a Senior International career with England? Doubtful.
McGeady and McCarthy - there's a strong case to suggest that the South are, and have been, a better outfit than Scotland.
Grealish seems to have been weighing up which option provides him with the better option of senior international football - likewise with McGinty & Keane.
Put it another way - if Wayne Rooney wasn't good enough to play for England, he'd be playing with the South.
Just like our side, yours has been used over the years by players born in England, who were not good enough to make a senior International career with England.
We've never had a Seamus Duffy play for us - assuming you mean Shane Duffy, he identified enough with Northern Ireland to represent them on numerous occasions (including accepting a call up to a senior International squad) before deciding he might be good enough to make the senior ROI team - something that remains to be seen.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Nonsense.
With these 2 players, there isn't a strong case for them choosing Ireland over Scotland because we might have a better team on occasion.
You can argue loudly but that does not make a strong argument.
Ciaran Clark picked up many underage honours for England and captained plenty sides. Under 21 recognition was probably imminent given his form last season. And senior recognition is anyone's guess. But he identified more with Ireland.
In relation to Best, he was a hot prospect. He didn't, as you seem to be inferring regarding Duffy, jump on ship with Ireland because he felt that was his level. He was called up to English underage squads on occasions. He made the conscious decision to remain with Ireland and even though he development did not continue as it could have.
At the moment, Grealish is committed to Ireland. He's clearly good enough for English youth squads. The same could probably be said for McGinty and Keane, and the doubts cast over them of late have not reached conclusion. Particularly given that McGinty appears to have been merely just been left out of the Irish under 19's.
Error there by me for Duffy. With what certainty can you base his decision on him maybe being good enough for the senior ROI team? I would have thought his decision pertained more to his father's heritage and the subsequent bearing that would have had on his views. I presume the FAI knew he was good enough to make, at least, Irish underage sides from a young age. The most likely scenario is that he received a call-up from the IFA and accepted it. Being fast-tracked into the senior set-up at such a young age was most likely the turning point for Duffy.
The Scottish international team would be a far stronger outfit today had they a midfield 5 of Snodgrass-Adam-McCarthy-Fletcher-McGeady.
Last edited by Olé Olé; 08/12/2011 at 6:00 PM.
Duffy chose to declare for the FAI because it had always been his dream to play for his country - the team he grew up supporting. His mother's heritage is as Irish as his father's. The reason he ended up staying within the IFA's ranks so long was largely due to being given a guilt trip by almost everyone in the IFA every time it emerged he was making moves to switch; they fast-tracked him through the ranks as a reward. He would have been in Ireland underage teams from U17 upwards otherwise. Anyway, he made his decision almost two years ago and has since played for his country 9 times, scoring once.
His talent to play for his country has always been undoubted. Ask any NI coach or any ROI coach.
Last edited by Predator; 08/12/2011 at 7:51 PM.
End Apartheid Now! One Team in Ireland!
No Brazil:
This is what I was disputing with my comments, not the facts you have stated. What you have said there is a clearer, more informed representation of what I was saying. I know well he's well capable of going on to play for the senior side. What No Brazil suggested was that he came to a realization that he was good enough to play for Ireland and hence, only went about switching then. I was only aware of his father's ties to the Republic but was aware Ireland was the team he supported.Shane Duffy, he identified enough with Northern Ireland to represent them on numerous occasions (including accepting a call up to a senior International squad) before deciding he might be good enough to make the senior ROI team - something that remains to be seen.
That's fine.
NB's suggestion that Duffy only switched because he suddenly thought he might have been good enough to challenge for a place is an obfuscation. He switched for the reasons that he has stated in his interviews and he had only just turned 18 when he made the switch, having attempted to at 16 and 17.
Contrary to NB's assertion, playing for an association's representative teams doesn't necessarily indicate an identification, as he well knows. However Duffy's decision, along with that of Kearns, McClean and others is an indication of identification, an affinity, with the Irish national team.
End Apartheid Now! One Team in Ireland!
Amen. I wholeheartedly agree with this. I think we are seeing eye to eye as regards players for both NI and Ireland, accepting they are not good enough to play for their own national team so they represent another. (That said in our starting 11, the only player this applies to is Sledge)
I think and hope this meeting of the minds may bring to an end, this tedious discussion regarding anthems.
Let the NI fans play GSTQ. It is representative of their fan base. Amhrán na bhFiann is representative of the people of the 32 counties of Ireland that support Ireland.
Is this really that complex a concept to grasp that it deserves page upon page of discussion going round in circles?
Similarly, we saw the 4 or 5 Northern Ireland underage players that tweeted their support for Ireland during and after the Estonia play-off. A clear statement of who they identified themselves with, even if they are currently unwilling to or unable to switch playing allegiances.That's fine.
NB's suggestion that Duffy only switched because he suddenly thought he might have been good enough to challenge for a place is an obfuscation. He switched for the reasons that he has stated in his interviews and he had only just turned 18 when he made the switch, having attempted to at 16 and 17.
Contrary to NB's assertion, playing for an association's representative teams doesn't necessarily indicate an identification, as he well knows. However Duffy's decision, along with that of Kearns, McClean and others is an indication of identification, an affinity, with the Irish national team.
Whilst you are correct to point out that GSTQ is broadly representative of the NI fanbase (although in my experience this is decreasing), it is not representative of the NI team; with particular emphasis on the various NI youth sides which, if I'm not mistaken, are around *55 - 60% nationalist in composition. In this regard it is, and will remain, a bone of contention. It must also be pointed out, in case anyone needs reminding, that GSTQ has no official status as a Northern Ireland anthem and is played before NI's international matches because the IFA elect to do so. Therefore, strictly speaking, it is used as a sporting anthem.
It has been thrust back into the spotlight ever since the resolution of player eligibility debacle in our favour; leading many within NI footballing circles to explore various ways and means of trying to stem, what many interpret as, the 'steady tide' of player defections to the Republic. In this sense it is a wholly logical, if tiresome, debate.
* I would need NB or GR to confirm that.
The concept is not difficult to grasp at all. In my experience, these arguments continue because player eligibility threads seem to trigger a nitpicking reflex amongst some contributors.
Last edited by The Fly; 08/12/2011 at 11:38 PM.
Perhaps in the underage squads there is a higher percentage of nationalists playing, but I think we both know, the majority of these are harbouring aspirations of representing Ireland.
I'd say that's a safe assumption to make, and that many such players will go on to represent Northern Ireland in international football for both careerist reasons and due to the ties of friendship made with fellow players and coaching staff along the way.
Actually none of them are British 'citizens', otherwise they couldn't play for Ireland, FFS!!
Btw, my sister from Doire's kids are all Irish citizens, despite them being born in England. And never have been.
So something else you need to read up on!
Paranoia alert! Where have I said you (or anyone) can't think of themselves as 'Irish'? Get a grip.
95% of Prods in that study see themselves as non-exclusively Irish. Even allowing for the enlightened, like my ancestors, the vast majority don't want to be Irish.
Why not ask the same question for the next 10 Linfield/North games?? In all honesty, even without being there, you'll get very few takers...
What's that statement about 'wising up' or the 'dogs on the street' ?
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