Eligibility Rules, Okay

Originally Posted by gastric

I agree with other posters here that this talk about a change of anthem is a superficial attempt to highlight the issues of players looking South. The issues between both communities are such that such a step would mean basically nothing. NB's comment of a few pages ago that essentially he would be supporting the other three teams in Ireland's group shows the feeling among Unionist supporters. They dislike everything we stand for and as another poster mentioned he is quite moderate in his views.

Can understand up to a point why unionists want their own team, but you do wonder why the ones who claim to be 'Irish', wouldn't also support the main Ireland team?
Not to mention being overtly 'anti-', long before any recent disputes.

It's this sort of attitude which has persuaded people I know from Beal-feirste, Doire and elsewhere in the North to never bother with them.
The English anthem and flag don't help, but mainly it's the mindset of even their 'moderate' fans in the last few decades....

Originally Posted by Gather round

Not quite. While they're the priority for the reasons I described, I'm also interested in potential new fans, even large groups which represent whole sectors of society.

As I've said many times on here, realistically such new fans are more likely to come from the unionist (or non-nationalist, if you prefer) community. Nationalist football fans in NI tend to support the Republic as we know. That's not to say a more welcoming atmosphere for them wouldn't be welcome, they just aren't the priority as I see it; they already support another team.

Is that realistic? I think yous are selling yourselves short. Look at the team of the mid-80s - Northern Ireland can have an inclusive side that all communities support but in the absence of a great team I think you need to be more creative.

Indeed. As far as I know- not that far, as I live in England am not an IFA official in any capacity- it's the same in private. I simply think it's the wrong priority, as I say above.

Fair enough. Like I said, I have no problem with a Northern Ireland team that values its British identity, but I don't think it will ever expand beyond that.

Well, to repeat again: I certainly don't identify with- or like- GSTQ, yet I've been watching NI games since the 70s and don't find the anthem a major factor in setting the environment. Actually I'm normally tranferring from pub to seat via toilets while it's playing. So funnily enough, I don't think changing the anthem, if it happens, will make that much difference to the atmosphere, nor indeed the people who turn up.

But surely you understand that other people find GSTQ more objectionable than you do?

I'm not a RU fan so merely quoting others second hand, but assuming that comment is serious it's misplaced. Almost all the NI unionist RU fans I know think the lack of AnbF outside the Republic is irrelevant; if the IRFU wanted to make a real symbolic gesture they'd stop playing it at Lansdowne.

They don't want to make a symbolic gesture, though, and I don't think anyone's really asking for it. As far as I know, AnabhF has to be played at any engagement the President attends anyway.

That's my point. Other people (ie those who aren't ever likely, realistically, to show at an NI game) are largely irrelevant to the IFA. Remember, they aren't a government agency or political party- they don't have to be accountable to the wider electorate as long as they operate within the law, as I said.

Yeah, I don't think they have any obligation but it seems like they want to represent all communities.

Maybe, but I daresay they also relfect the society they live in. Which, in NI means 90% of voters voting around a single issue, as I mentioned.

I'm not going to pretend to know more about NI politics than you because I don't, but from what I know a vote for Sinn Fein isn't a vote for a United Ireland. The poll data shows that a significant majority of the country still favours the union, and that includes a lot of 'single issue' SF voters.

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Where have the IFA stated this publicly?

No idea. It just seems like going to traditionally nationalist schools, trying to have all NI-born players declared eligible only for NI etc. that they wanted a broadly representative side to represent all people in the country. Maybe they just want nationalist players but not the fans, I don't know.

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Why do the IRFU use it in the Republic?

Anyway, perhaps GSTQ followed by a uniquely Northern Irish Anthem is the way to go, based on the practice of the IRFU.

Don't quote me on it, but I think AnabhF has to be played when the President is in attendance. I could be wrong on that. But it's the anthem of the state and I think most people respect that. I wouldn't have a problem with GSTQ being played at internationals in Ravenhill either, despite the IRFU's objections. I think there is a double standard there emanating from the Republic.

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

That's rather presumptive.

I think it would be very close between the retainers and changers.

I probably wasn't clear enough. Restricting the poll to block bookers would be more likely to maintain the status quo. It's the option you'd pick if you were reluctant to change.

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I wouldn't have a problem with GSTQ being played at internationals in Ravenhill either, despite the IRFU's objections.

I would.

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I think there is a double standard there emanating from the Republic.

I'm pretty thankful for that double standard.

Originally Posted by Geysir

So it would make no difference to those NI unionist RU fans that you know, if the IRFU used AnbF along with Ireland's Call, for the away game anthems?

No, or at least only very marginally. That is, they're already irritated by AnbF playing in Dublin. They'd only be a bit more irritated if it played in France or South Africa too.

That the issue is more with Ireland's Call not being a specific sport anthem for NI? or just use Ireland's Call exclusively home and away?

The latter.

As you know, I prefer cricket where the playing of anthems isn't an issue. But if we were to have them, I'd prefer something neutral that wasn't the national anthem of either of the two countries represented. The whole point being that the joint team represents two separate countries, not the batsmen running out to one tune and the bowlers to another.

Originally Posted by French Toasht

I think supporting NI is the anathema of what Irish identity is

Northern Ireland (and its football team, and their supporters) are 100% Irish, just like the South's equivalents. Anathema doesn't mean opposite, by the way, and inapproriate here even if you mean that all NI fans by definition hate a Republic of Irish identity. They don't, any more than all RoI fans hate an English identity or whatever.

Originally Posted by Predator

You don't care if the NI team becomes more broadly representative of the people of NI

Do you actually read what others write? I made clear my support for extending the base of NI fans, while accepting that some groups are obviously more likely to be convinced than others.

Is a national team supposed to be representative of its fans only, or the football fans of the nation/region/statelet it is named after?

The former, of course. It'd be a bit silly if it set out to represent Portuguese or Latvian football fans. They- like you- already support other teams. Which- to repeat- doesn't exclude them or anyone else from becoming NI fans.

In a place like NI, you'd think the IFA would attempt to bridge division, rather than reaffirm it

They have tried, and been quite successful. Not Brazil on this forum/ thread has been personally involved in many of their initiatives and will be glad to supply details, if you're interested in reading them.

The IFA cares about those who wanted a United Ireland yesterday when they decide to leave NI for a team more representative of them

I've suggested repeatedly how I'd prefer they tackled this issue. By accepting that many players, like fans, from NI will identify with the South and want to play for its teams. And by trying to persuade those who have chosen to play for NI teams to remain available for them. Ideally as part of a bilateral deal with the FAI where they don't sleect each other's adult players.

As the governing body for football in Northern Ireland, they have a duty to all football fans/players in the area. not just those who are content with the status quo

As an FA organising international football, their priority is obviously fans of that team first, potential fans second. Not all lof the first group (including me) are happy with the Status quo, as should be obvious.

It's a very insular attitude to suggest that the IFA should effectively only care what unionists think

I didn't suggest that, rather that there were priorities. And let's be honest, people who aren't realistically going to become fans aren't the top priority. Which isn't to deny that, like any public organisation, the IFA should be listening to constructive criticism from any source.

Why would opinion polls need to be filtered?

Standard public opinion surveys interview about 1,000 people. But not just the first 1,000 you meet down the street. You normally need 50% women, 15% over 65, 7% ethnic minority and so on.

A survey of IFA block bookers doesn't need to that. It just, er, asks all the block bookers. So it's both easier and more comprehensive.

Would their opinions be as valid to the IFA as that of NI fans? If not, why not?

All opinions are valid, and- as I say earlier in this post- the IFA should listen to any constructive criticism. The opinions of anyone realistically unlikely to become a NI fan aren't invalid, just less likely to be relevant.

I just think they should attempt to reach out to the entirety of NI, including the "irredeemably biased", if they're ever to be taken even a wee bit seriously by that section of society

Something of a roundabout argument, this. They'd be more likely to reach out as you say if the irredeemably biased took them even a wee bit seriously (ie, weren't so irredeemably biased...)

To suggest that only current NI fans should have a say is remarkably blinkered

I suggested pretty much the exact opposite. Do you have any other straw man arguments for us?

[quote]I don't think it's particularly unreasonable to expect those who govern the game in NI to attempt to be inclusive of as many football fans in NI as they can

It's not unreasonable, just not a high priority in the way you're describing it. The IFA's role is to run football- and specifically in this argument, an international side. Not to commission sociological research.

Originally Posted by I am the Fly

One of the more ridiculous arguments offered against the proposition for change on OWC was that "it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to those who already support the Republic (or 'beggars' - to use OWC terminology), so what's the point?".....or words to that effect.

Answer - It's to try and secure more support from future generations of football fans in NI

While that OWC argument is a bit crude, your reply is simplistic. Potential future NI fans from a nationalist background (PoFNIFFAN-B, for short) are just as likely to be affected in their choice of team by factors other than what's played at Windsor, don't ye think? You know, like what their parents/ teachers/ the Legion of Mary* tell them...

* I'm an ex-member. Long story...

Originally Posted by Danny Invincilble

How would a player poll sound?

Like most other opinions offered by professional footbalers, I imagine. Bland and uncontroversial to the mainstream media, often crass and selfish in private (or on social media, which many of them seem to think IS private).

Originally Posted by Gastric

NB's comment of a few pages ago that essentially he would be supporting the other three teams in Ireland's group shows the feeling among Unionist supporters. They dislike everything we stand for and as another poster mentioned he is quite moderate in his views

All NB's comment illustrates is that NI fans tend to hope their main rivals lose. We're little different from RoI fans in that respect (or those of Scotland, England etc.) So NB's moderate, articulate fans on here aren't the issue, are they? He's just doing what football fans do.

The peace walls which separate communities would have to come down before I would believe real progress had been made in NI...it will take centuries for real reconciliation to occur. Until then, many young NI players will continue to look South for acknowledgement and acceptance

Point taken about the peace walls. There was an item on BBC Hearts and Minds show this week about them, set in my old manor around Edlingham Street in north Belfast.

That said, we have undeniably progressed from 30 years of the systematic murder of more than 3,000 people. And it's a bit of a leap to suggest that young footballers choose one of their eligible teams to play for because of centuries of mistrust. They're just playing for a football team, like.

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I think yous are selling yourselves short. Look at the team of the mid-80s - Northern Ireland can have an inclusive side that all communities support but in the absence of a great team I think you need to be more creative

NI nationalists supported the local side in the 80s not just because it was better than the RoI for six or seven years, but also because it played more serious games (eg in the British Home Internationals), the game in the South was underdeveloped and so on. All this despite violence and sectarian mistrust that was far worse than now.

On field, things have changed a lot. The South's team are unlikely to finish a qualifying campaign with one point, like they did when I was a kid, for example.

Like I said, I have no problem with a Northern Ireland team that values its British identity, but I don't think it will ever expand beyond that

Maybe it doesn't want to. Not all football teams (nor their parent countries) aspire to expand into (ie, take over) others' support...

But surely you understand that other people find GSTQ more objectionable than you do?

Of course, although in large part that reflects their determination to be offended. Without wanting to labor the point, there's a limit to how far you can mollify them. And if you think about it, as someone who's always opposed the monarchy I'm just as likely to be irritated by its symbolism as some nationalist footballer. Whether inside Windsor Park or well beyond. I mean, living in Britain I've had to put up with it for most of my life.

They don't want to make a symbolic gesture, though, and I don't think anyone's really asking for it. As far as I know, AnabhF has to be played at any engagement the President attends anyway

I explained that many of their fans in NI were asking for it. Anyway, the problem would be easily solved. The pres could waive the need to play it, or just stay away.

from what I know a vote for Sinn Fein isn't a vote for a United Ireland. The poll data shows that a significant majority of the country still favours the union, and that includes a lot of 'single issue' SF voters

Sinn Fein's main purpose, made explicitly clear in all its mission statements, election addresses, advertising and the rest is to achieve a united Ireland none of which is part of Britain. Yes, I'm aware that some opinion poll data contradicts this. How to explain? Well, maybe SF voters are being a little dishonest with themselves and the pollsters. Or maybe- as Mr Fly might well conclude- they're just a bit thick.

Whereas unionists are the Intelligentsia??
For instance, there is no country called 'the South'.

That's why when nationalist footballers endure such arrogance they tend to go elsewhere!

The rest I could take with more credibility is if it's what you say away from here, which is often a lot more 'unreasonable'.
A little more consistency would be appreciated!

Originally Posted by gastric

NB's comment of a few pages ago that essentially he would be supporting the other three teams in Ireland's group shows the feeling among Unionist supporters.

Can you please direct me to where I made these comments.

Thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I think AnabhF has to be played when the President is in attendance. I could be wrong on that.

AnabhF is played at Ireland "home" matches, in addition to the Presidential Salute.

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

AnabhF is played at Ireland "home" matches, in addition to the Presidential Salute.

"home"?

Originally Posted by ifk101

"home"?

Yes - the IRFU deem a fixture in Belfast to be an "away" match.

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Yes - the IRFU deem a fixture in Belfast to be an "away" match.

Is that your interpretation or have the IRFU stated as such?

Originally Posted by ifk101

Is that your interpretation or have the IRFU stated as such?

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...w-1253200.html

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/loc...hill_1_1891535

http://www.herald.ie/news/city-counc...p-2865029.html

I don't read where the IRFU deem Belfast to be an away game so I'll take it as your interpretation as the comments attributable to the IRFU in the above articles are as follows;

"The issue of protocols for the Ireland v Italy match were discussed in a full and open manner within the Ulster branch. The matter was placed before the IRFU and a consensus decision was reached supporting the views of the Ulster branch."

"All games held within the jurisdiction of the Republic of Ireland will see the tricolour flown and Amhran na Bhfiann played. Outside that it is Ireland's Call. That is the union's policy."

I personally wouldn't have any major objections to the dropping of Amhran na Bhfiann in favour of just Ireland's Call at home games. But it seems the IRFU's decision not to play Amhran na Bhfiann in Ravenhill was reached by democratic means so I respect that decision.

Originally Posted by ifk101

I don't read where the IRFU deem Belfast to be an away game

I personally wouldn't have any major objections to the dropping of Amhran na Bhfiann in favour of just Ireland's Call at home games. But it seems the IRFU's decision not to play Amhran na Bhfiann in Ravenhill was reached by democratic means so I respect that decision.

From The Herald article:

"The IRFU had ruled that any game held in Belfast was deemed an away fixture, so only Ireland's Call would be played. Former Irish winger Trevor Ringland was critical of the move"

I wasn't in agreement with the argument that GSTQ should have been played alongside Ireland's Call for the match at Ravenhill, but I fail to see what justification the IRFU have for playing Amhran na Bhfiann at any Ireland match.

However, if the IRFU's practice is to be lauded as inclusive, then the IFA should consider introducing a Northern Ireland specific anthem to be played alongside GSTQ at Windsor Park.

Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

but you do wonder why the ones who claim to be 'Irish', wouldn't also support the main Ireland team?

Do you also support the other Irish team - ie. the one representing the Irish Football Association?

Except it's the Irish national anthem.
Why play the Brit one??

Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Except it's the Irish national anthem.
Why play the Brit one??

Amhran na Bhfiann is not the National Anthem of Northern Ireland.

I'm not sure what context you are referring to "the Brit one"? - I have already stated I do not think GSTQ should be played at Ireland rugby matches hosted at Ravenhill.

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

From The Herald article:

"The IRFU had ruled that any game held in Belfast was deemed an away fixture, so only Ireland's Call would be played. Former Irish winger Trevor Ringland was critical of the move"

That wording is the Herald's interpretation and isn't directly attributable to the IRFU.

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I wasn't in agreement with the argument that GSTQ should have been played alongside Ireland's Call for the match at Ravenhill, but I fail to see what justification the IRFU have for playing Amhran na Bhfiann at any Ireland match.

Perhaps the justification is the majority position within the IRFU.

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

However, if the IRFU's practice is to lauded as inclusive, then the IFA should consider introducing a Northern Ireland specific anthem to be played alongside GSTQ at Windsor Park.

A Northern Ireland specific anthem in itself would be perceived as exclusive by certain parties within NI, no?

Originally Posted by ifk101

Perhaps the justification is the majority position within the IRFU.

A Northern Ireland specific anthem in itself would be perceived as exclusive by certain parties within NI, no?

Likewise, perhaps the playing of GSTQ at Northern Ireland games is the current majority position within the IFA?

I'm not really interested in "certain parties" - I'm interested in the views of the IFA, those that support their representative teams and those who have the best interests of the IFA progressing successfully have on the Anthem issue.

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Likewise, perhaps the playing of GSTQ at Northern Ireland games is the current majority position within the IFA?

I'm sure it is. As NI is a region of the UK, and NI does not have a distinct or common nation/ national identity, and GSTQ is the national anthem of the UK, it's only natural that the IFA has GSTQ as it's national anthem.

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I'm not really interested in "certain parties" - I'm interested in the views of the IFA, those that support their representative teams and those who have the best interests of the IFA progressing successfully have on the Anthem issue.

What the IFA and its supporters chose to do on the anthem issue is of no real concern to me. However since you brought it up, if the objective is a more inclusive anthem, this cannot be achieved by an exclusive decision making process.