Diaspora Voting

[dahamsta]

Posting from mobile so I'm not going to witter but I'm sure ye've seen the (nonsense) articles. My opinion is obvious, what's yours?

[shantykelly]

Postal voting within the confines of the state aside, I think that if you spend the majority of your time abroad and you don't have direct economic/financial ties to the state, then you shouldn't be able to vote on how it operates and who operates it, as it really doesn't affect you, but your vote can affect those who still live here. As for letting the x number of gombeens with Irish passports vote? Why do this? Maybe, just maybe, for the Presidency, but for the election of a Dáil that is to run the country? Completely stupid idea. They aren't affected by the operation of the state. Maybe they should be reminded that they might consider themselves part of the Irish nation, and that's fair enough, but the state is a completely different entity.

[SkStu]

not even sure why this is an issue. Makes no sense to me mostly for the reasons outlined by ShantyKelly.

[micls]

I'm currently living abroad while on a career break so in tat way I slightly disagree with Shantykelly, as the choices made will certainly affect me, my pay, conditions etc. I'd imagine a lot of people living abroad atm, mostly because of the lack of jobs at home, are hoping to return. The choice of government and their decisions will impact greatly on peoples ability to return.

That said when you leave the country I think you do it knowing you won't be able to vote and you need to trust those back home to do the best for the country, which will ultimately help you. That trust is difficult when you have a population who happily re-elected fianna fail last time though

[John83]

Until a little over a month ago, I was abroad on a 1 year contract. If I hadn't gotten a job over here, I'd still be doing that. I'd be watching this election fully anticipating having to put up with the outcome on my return here and would most certainly have wanted to vote in it. I can certainly empathise with people who have moved abroad for work wanting to vote, and any suggestion that it doesn't affect them is rubbish - the government's economic policies can have an enormous impact on whether or not they will ever get to move home. That's a massive problem for such people, more serious than whether Dahamsta has to pay an extra quid for a tank of petrol (though, granted, less important than economic and social policy for the unemployed and poor, and healthcare policy for everyone).

That said, there are also those who have effectively settled down in another country, and will probably never return. They've no business voting here.

[shantykelly]

fair point on the career break thingy, cos im going on one in march. but what criteria do you apply? Im definitely coming back for a while, but may go again (flights are paid for and all). I worked with fellas who have gone, with the intention of coming home after a year, and they're still living abroad.

[Spudulika]

I agree wholeheartedly with voting overseas - though not diaspora voting with it's negative connotations and results. I saw it in person in Croatia, where the country was dragged into war by corrupt leaders and the type of moron who fights with other morons at the Australian Open - because their grandparents told them stories that they'd been told by their grandparents.

Caveats can be held firm so that it is a positive and progressive experience - plus the voting numbers will not be as big as we would all think. I for one have complained about the lack of voting rights for those of us who have to work most of the time overseas yet I pay my taxes in full through the Irish system, have direct debits to 3 local charities and assist Irish business for outward and inward activities. So why shouldn't I vote? What right does some 18 year old who was drummed out of school at 16 and has spent 2 years taking money from my tax payments?

Simple rules:
You've spent half of your life in Ireland.
You've contributed for more than 5 years to the Irish tax system.
You've maintained an Irish passport and been back to Ireland for a minimum of 1 month per year in the preceding 3 years (to the election).

No way should you get the vote just because you're an Irish citizen - imagine the further mayhem if the headers in NORAD had such a chance. And there is no need for a seat in the Dail for Irish overseas. Senate spots can be tempered for this.

[Macy]

Haven't seen the articles, but will try and look them up. However, if you don't live in the state, you shouldn't have a vote (including tax exiles, if they retain their vote). Pretty much as shantykelly outlines. I wouldn't be opposed to some limited senate representation (1 or 2 seats) for non resident Irish Citizens. Comparisons with other countries that allow it isn't really valid as they don't have the potential swing that could happen here.

Not sure it's legally correct, but surely if you're on a short term contract and you're still on the register of electors, you could come back and vote?

[John83]

Not sure it's legally correct, but surely if you're on a short term contract and you're still on the register of electors, you could come back and vote?

I was removed from the register. I've no idea why - my family disavows any contact with electoral officials. Were that not the case, yes, but I'm not sure the €1200 return flight would have been worth it, given I was working in a country where that was a (rather generous) month's wages.

[Billsthoughts]

1200 return flight would have been worth it, given I was working in a country where that was a (rather generous) month's wages.

and soon will again!

[Bluebeard]

When I moved, I asked for my name to be taken from the register. I strongly think that tax & social welfare should be connected to the vote. I have a great interest in the electoral affairs of state, but I neither live there nor pay take there, nor am registered for social welfare there. I am neither a beneficiary, nor a contributor to the state, and therefore should not be eligible, no matter how many visits or how long I stay there, nor how much money I remit to family. While the affairs of state have generally caused me constant embarrassment for the past few years, that is not trauma enough to entitle me to a vote - I shan't be seeking one if this bluster were ever to come to pass.

Plus, I would probably not be eligible, as a non FF voter.

[backstothewall]

Sorry to point out the elephant in the room, but where would us Nordies fit into this. A vote in presidential elections was hinted at at the time of the GFA but we're still waiting.

I would also like to see Northern MPs who choose to attend being allowed the right to sit and speak in the Dail. Voting is certainly a trickier issue. It would not fair to allow them to vote unless in circumstances where a decision would have an impact on the North. I don't think it would be right for my representatives to have a say on imposing a tax on people living in the state for example, but then something like NAMA had a huge impact on the 6 counties (The state is now the biggest landlord in the North. Admittedly it hasn't cost me a penny in taxes, but who knows, perhaps the votes of Deputies Adams, McGuinness, Durkan et al could have prevented the maddest policy in years coming to fruition!)

NAMA is a ropey enough example, but it is the one that springs to mind right now. Hypothetical situations, e.g entering a war, I would be much more keen to have a say on.

I don't think a one size fits all model of extending the franchise to all diaspora in all situations would be fair, but I don't think the current system is any better. I do think that wherever they live, Irish people who would choose to go to the effort of voting should be allowed a say in who the President is, or on changes to the constitution of the country they could well return to. The limits to the power of the president, and the role of the Dáil in amending the constitution would prevent that franchise being exploited by the NORAID brigade.

Yet in elections to the Dáil, the *******ised principal of 'No Representation without Taxation' sounds fair enough. I would certainly like us northerners to have our voice heard, but I can see why voting has to be limited to the representatives of those living in the state.

[ped_ped]

Senate spots can be tempered for this.

I like this idea.

[osarusan]

I have no strong feelings on it either way, but I think it's difficult to put together a list of reasons why people living abroad shouldn't be allowed to vote that wouldn't also exclude some people living in Ireland also, unless the only reason is 'must be living in Ireland'.

[Spudulika]

Bennocelt, I think a voice in the Senate would be sufficient to keep folks on board - from the North I mean. The reason I say this, unless people resident there pay taxes or spend most of their time in the South, would be because of objections from Unionists and the UK government (it would open a can of worms in the EU too). You'd have little mini-me Paisley demanding a seat in the Dail too, while young apprentices in the city and county of Dublin would be running far and fast from Irascible Iris. You'd have Basques in the South of France wanting seats in the Spanish Parliament, Dutch in Belgium, well you get the drift. I mentioned Croatia in an earlier post and the mess they made of the state with diaspora voting - they also let Croats in Bosnia vote in national elections and have seats in the Croatian parliament. Because of the utter lack of lack there (in Bosnia) there were instances of hundreds of votes for the HDZ candidate, which meant that the dead rose and voted in large numbers - not too distant from DeV's Ireland.

A voice(s) in the Senate would be a start, and at least the Unionists would be represented by the members from Trinners (orange s...no, shouldn't I have to let that go). But it would be a start and not scare the arms of British security into falsifying more "dissident" attacks to keep their budgets up.

[backstothewall]

Bennocelt, I think a voice in the Senate would be sufficient to keep folks on board - from the North I mean. The reason I say this, unless people resident there pay taxes or spend most of their time in the South, would be because of objections from Unionists and the UK government.

The Seanad would be a start, but if you think few people in the south really understand what the Seanad is for, that ignorance of it is nothing on the North. I'm a bit of a politico, and even I have no idea why Ireland has a Senate, other than that we copied the Brits system of government in 1922, but we didn't want any mention of 'Lords' in the title. I get the feeling a vote for the President would be much more popular amongst Northerners. It also helps that the current President is, unsurprisingly, very popular in the North.

It also has the added advantage that there is no way the unionists could object without coming across as sectarian bigots, given that there have been polling stations set up in Belfast for both American and Polish Presidential elections in recent years without any objections.

[Macy]

I have no strong feelings on it either way, but I think it's difficult to put together a list of reasons why people living abroad shouldn't be allowed to vote that wouldn't also exclude some people living in Ireland also, unless the only reason is 'must be living in Ireland'.

But living in, and having to suffer the Government elected is a pretty big reason imo!

Matt Cooper had the fella that wrote the Irish Times article on this - the non resident citizens amounts to 3.5 million, more than the residential electorate. How could it possible be fair to give them equal status to residents?

His only defence was that most "probably" wouldn't bother voting! Even having an overseas consituency could have a major impact, given how important one or two independents have been.

[Longfordian]

Friend of mine from school that lad funnily enough, Peter Geoghegan. I don't agree with his argument either for what it's worth. Part of the sacrifice you make when emigrating I feel and as pointed out it's just not practical given the number of people it could be applied to.

[bennocelt]

Bennocelt, I think a voice in the Senate would be sufficient to keep folks on board - from the North I mean.

BacktoWalsall you mean

Anyway Im in the Uk and will be looking for a postal vote, why not, I'm not exactly here out of choice but because of the state of the FF run country I left behind?

[dahamsta]

As has been pointed out several times, you don't have to pay taxes over here. You pay your taxes in Ireland and you can vote all you want fella.