Diaspora Voting

**shantykelly** · 26/01/2011, 9:57 PM

Originally Posted by osarusan

Even though the company may be contributing more tax by getting foreign contracts and sending workers abroad than they would by not doing so?

I think people can contribute to a country in ways other than personal taxes, and such a member of the company, as well as aiding the company's (and consequently Ireland's) increased revenue, through demonstrating their own ability and that of their company, is in a small way advertising Ireland and its businesses in such a way that might see more foreign contracts granted to Irish companies in the future.

Similarly, people who work for agencies such as Tourism Ireland in a foreign office, and who work to promote Ireland as a tourist destination, are, in my view, definitely contributing to the country, albeit not through personal tax.

Im a perfect example of this. i work for a construction company that operates internationally, but HQ is in belfast. we would be a fairly upper mid-level player in the south, with a few notable joint projects with southern companies. the southern branch of the company pays a substantial amount of tax in the republic, as it is set up nearly as an independent business. however, i can get assigned to the south (and have been, most recently letterkenny) and still be paid through the belfast office. i also hold an irish passport and so am an irish citizen. i dont feel entitled to vote in southern elections. you could find a thousand different permutations of irish citizens in different jurisdictions, how do you legislate for it? where do you establish the cut off point for who can and cant vote amongst irish citizens abroad?

**osarusan** · 26/01/2011, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by shantykelly

you could find a thousand different permutations of irish citizens in different jurisdictions, how do you legislate for it? where do you establish the cut off point for who can and cant vote amongst irish citizens abroad?

This is the whole question, isn't it? Establishing the cut-off point is the whole issue.

If the argument simply is that you must be resident in the state, then I've no problem with that.

But when the argument is that you must be contribute (which, for most on here, seems to mean paying tax, though as my post indicates, I take a broader point of view), or be affected by the results of an election, I think it's possible to come up with examples of where these two points aren't always limited to residency..

**dahamsta** · 26/01/2011, 10:41 PM

Maybe for multiple workers osarusan, not for one. One person, one vote. Would you like to give votes to the companies too? (Adam's Useless Facts #362: In the City of London, they actually do, via a representative of course.)

I think you're reading me a bit literally on the tax front. Many Irish residents don't pay tax, I wasn't suggesting that they're not entitled to a vote. But you knew that, of course...

**ArdeeBhoy** · 26/01/2011, 11:17 PM

Can understand the non-taxpayer argument, though as someone said that's hardly a catch-all.
And then the retired or unemployed don't vote?

But broadly agree with what's been said. Some sort of token representation should be made in the form of the Seanad and possibly Presidential elections, which is a figurehead every citizen should be entitled to have their say on.
More importantly, some form of equivalence within the EU regarding voting rights of all non-resident citizens should be debated longer-term to remove the discrepancies highlighted above.

**Macy** · 27/01/2011, 8:41 AM

Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Can understand the non-taxpayer argument, though as someone said that's hardly a catch-all.
And then the retired or unemployed don't vote?

If you're resident you pay indirect taxes, like VAT. However, residency is the key, rather than tax payer imo. The Irish worker working abroad for an Irish Company, as highlighted above, doesn't have to live with the consequence of how a Government allocates resources. If they are abroad, they won't be stuck on an A&E trolley for days, for example, or send their children to an overcrowded portacabin school etc etc.

**John83** · 27/01/2011, 9:19 AM

Originally Posted by dahamsta

It's perfectly fair. If you want a say in how the country is run, stay in the country and make a contribution to it.

By that logic, we should strip anyone on the dole of the right to vote. Your attitude was well enough when times were good, but not with unemployment at current rates.

Originally Posted by Macy

If you're resident you pay indirect taxes, like VAT. However, residency is the key, rather than tax payer imo. The Irish worker working abroad for an Irish Company, as highlighted above, doesn't have to live with the consequence of how a Government allocates resources. If they are abroad, they won't be stuck on an A&E trolley for days, for example, or send their children to an overcrowded portacabin school etc etc.

So we give the vote indiscriminately to resident non-citizens?

Also, if you think that someone who's had to leave the country temporarily for work doesn't have to deal with the consequences of the government's policies, you're dreaming.

**Macy** · 27/01/2011, 9:55 AM

Originally Posted by John83

By that logic, we should strip anyone on the dole of the right to vote. Your attitude was well enough when times were good, but not with unemployment at current rates.

Again, they pay indirect taxes and charges.

Originally Posted by John83

So we give the vote indiscriminately to resident non-citizens?

I'm not sure either indiscrimnate, but I think residents who are citizens of other countries have more a case than the millions on non resident Irish citizens in terms of being disenfranchised. You could put residency rules to qualify for the vote, rather than it being indiscrimnate.

Originally Posted by John83

Also, if you think that someone who's had to leave the country temporarily for work doesn't have to deal with the consequences of the government's policies, you're dreaming.

How do you define temporarily to give the vote? 6 month contract, 1 year contract, 2 year contract? Just a desire to come "home"? The only practical way of doing it, imo, is on residency.

**John83** · 27/01/2011, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Macy

Again, they pay indirect taxes and charges.

Using money granted by the government. That's just circular. If I give you a fiver, and you give me a quid back, you'd be a bit cheeky to claim I owe you any say in how I spend the quid.

I'm not sure either indiscrimnate, but I think residents who are citizens of other countries have more a case than the millions on non resident Irish citizens in terms of being disenfranchised. You could put residency rules to qualify for the vote, rather than it being indiscrimnate.

They have the right to vote in local and European elections (at least the EU citizens do) as it stands. Certainly, the degree to which they can vote, and the division of powers between local and national government is worth re-evaluating every now and then.

How do you define temporarily to give the vote? 6 month contract, 1 year contract, 2 year contract? Just a desire to come "home"? The only practical way of doing it, imo, is on residency.

I don't care - have a debate and settle on a reasonable definition: resident in the past 3 years, paid income tax here at least one year in the last five, left the country in the last 18 months - whatever, just have the debate. That it's unclear is not reason enough to disenfranchise those people.

**Gather round** · 27/01/2011, 11:18 AM

Interesting thread, especially the contributions from current or ex-NI residents.

The Seanad and President votes could be a good symbolic way of widening the franchise, which makes the possible abolition of one and uncontested shoo-in for the other all a bit disappointing.

Ex-senator Sam McAughtry is from the same street as me in Belfast, my mother was at school with him.

**dahamsta** · 27/01/2011, 11:40 AM

Lads, ye've gone on to nitpicking about who in Ireland can vote now, despite the fact that ye know damn well who is and isn't entitled anyway.

Please get back to the subject of the diaspora.

**Gather round** · 27/01/2011, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by dahamsta

Please get back to the subject of the diaspora.

Just to clarify, I think all citizens including in the disapora should have a vote for the Seanad and President. Wouldn't include me personally as I have not registered as a citizen of the Republic.

**John83** · 27/01/2011, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by dahamsta

Lads, ye've gone on to nitpicking about who in Ireland can vote now, despite the fact that ye know damn well who is and isn't entitled anyway.

Please get back to the subject of the diaspora.

You're the one who made this about paying tax. We're just exploring the logical consequences of that. Every post but one after yours mentions the diaspora, and that one is about the related question of Northern Irish citizens.

**dahamsta** · 27/01/2011, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by John83

You're the one who made this about paying tax.

http://foot.ie/threads/146491-Diaspo...=1#post1445145

Every post after mine mentions the diaspora, but many of them are focussing on the domestic vote. The topic is the diaspora. Again, back on topic please.

**ArdeeBhoy** · 27/01/2011, 2:29 PM

Whose chances of voting, you've gone on to ridicule at every opportunity.....

**shantykelly** · 27/01/2011, 5:58 PM

just to clarify, what is your definition of diaspora? i know its often used to comment on/discuss the numerous people of Irish descent around the world, but to be clear, I only refer to those born here in Ireland and currently work/live abroad.