Celtic Cup thread

[ArdeeBhoy]

Given the size of the small crowds expected, unless the FAI drastically change their admission policy, there'll be no problem getting in!
And know there'll be rakes of spare tickets floating about, even presuming the people made it there to offload them in the first place.....

[shakermaker1982]

Rather harsh on Harry, on three counts.

First, it is Harry who has turned Bale from a "promising young Full Back" as recently as 18 months ago, to a top quality Left Midfielder today.
Second, if you were in Harry's position i.e. "must-win" games following thick-and-fast since August, would you have the balls to leave him out? Anyhow, from what I've seen, Bale's current injury only occurred at the beginning of this month - he was full of running before then.
Third, having bought Pienaar as soon as he could in the window, Harry will be able to rest Bale.

I wouldn't give HR too much credit. Sure he only played Bale at LM because of necessity due to injuries at Spurs last season and was so so close to sending him to Nottm Forest. If Doughty (Forest chairman) and the acquisition panel weren't so careful with their pounds then Bale could be a Forest player!!

Spurs have to realise that you cannot play the likes of Van Der Vaart and Bale every game if your serious about competiting on all fronts. The only top top player I've seen who doesn't really get rested nowadays and still looks the business is Messi. Anyway I'm going off track here talking about Spurs.

Possible, I suppose, though 17 days is not a lot of time, even for a minor injury.

It's only a back twinge. A decent osteopath will have him sorted in a couple of days!

I could well be wrong, but I think Coleman (and other youngsters like McCarthy?) are unlucky "victims" of Trap's overall strategy for the team, on two counts.

First, it must be fairly obvious to Trap that the basic quality of the players at his disposal is inferior to what he's normally used to in Italy etc. Moreover, he hasn't got the time to work with them in training to make them better players, as he would with a club.

Second, there is a decent chance that he won't still be in charge after 2012, whether voluntarily or otherwise. Therefore he's not going to waste time developing youngsters like Coleman, for the sake of his own successor.

Consequently, he may be hoping that he can compensate for his core players' basic deficiencies by consistently sticking to the same, familiar selection/formation/tactics etc which have always served him well in the past.

Of course, one manager's "consistency" is another's "rigidity"....

The Trap is the original Mr rigid, hence there are a good few of us on here now starting to pull our hair out. It seems you cannot teach an old dog new tricks.

[paul_oshea]

I think EG said earlier that one managers consistency is anothers rigid(icy )ness, i dont think thats necessarily true. Not just in the case of trap, but you can be consistent and not be rigid, its how you are consistent that matters. Trap is not rigid, he has made changes when he needed to, but he hasn't necessarily made the right ones, or more importantly change his style and formation to accomodate the better players we have. He is rigid with his game-plan and formation of only setting us out as a 4-4-2 no matter what.

But he has not been consistent in some of the decisions( or at least what he has said to the media for the reasoning of these decisions). Not fitting mccarthy into the system is something i brought up ages ago with reasons, Trap yet hasn't done it, but he has been consistent in that its because he doesn't seem to think he fits into the 4-4-2, even if he says to the media that he would change the gameplan if we had the right players, again another form of incosistency, saying one thing and then not doing it. But not playing coleman, and almost to the same extent clark really doesn't fit in with the 1 point of consistency he has shown re: the former.

Trap could yet prove all us doubters wrong and play an attacking 4-5-1(4-3-3) against macedonia or he could wait until the last day for example when it really is too late and we play brilliantly, but alas too late - im not saying 4-5-1(4-3-3) is the saving grace, just an example of change that we may well need.

[Stuttgart88]

If Trap did play 4-4-3 I'd definitely say he was mad.

The McCarthy thing is genuinely worrying though.

[paul_oshea]

what are you on about stutts?

I mean a 4-5-1 for example that can slip into a 4-3-3 on counter attack, but as i said just an example.

There is a lot more than just Mccarthy.

Lets not get started on his point about the leetle details and making sure we concede less(from silly mistakes/lack of concentration/not sticking to gameplan etc etc) or straight away after scoring....

[tricky_colour]

OK I can't be arsed to find the squad in the thread so here it is again.

Given (Manchester City),
Westwood (Coventry),

O'Shea (Manchester Utd),
Clark (Aston Villa),
Coleman (Everton),
Dunne (Aston Villa),
St Ledger (Preston),
Foley (Wolves),
Kilbane (Huddersfield),
Kelly (Fulham),
O'Dea (Ipswich),
McShane (Hull),

Wilson (Stoke),
Gibson (Manchester Utd),
Whelan (Stoke),
Green (Derby),
Lawrence (Portsmouth),
Hunt (Wolves),
McGeady (Spartak Moscow),
Treacy (Preston),
Duff (Fulham),
Fahey (Birmingham City),

Keane (Tottenham),
Walters (Stoke),
Doyle (Wolves),
Long (Reading),
Keogh (Cardiff),
Best (Newcastle),
Stokes (Celtic).

[SkStu]

rigid(icy )ness.

rigidity... (sorry, it was really bothering me!)

[Noelys Guitar]

Hopefully some journo contacts McCarthy and Martinez over the coming days to find out what is going on. If McCarthy says he is OK to play and would like to have been selected (I have read/heard nothing that suggests otherwise) then we have a big problem.

[irishfan86]

I think the only people who should be talking to McCarthy are members of the FAI or his Irish teammates.

McCarthy has put up with a lot to declare for Ireland and I think he will stick by his word and play for us. A journalist annoying him with a question he's probably been asked a million times is not necessary.

I think this is a simple miscommunication/lack of communication issue, which is in itself inexcusable on Trap/the FAI's part, but if McCarthy is going to leave us on the back of one exclusion when he's just returning from injury, he's probably not the sort of player any team would want.

I've heard interviews with him and he seems very mature and intelligent. Hopefully he'll get a run of games with his club, and you never know who'll pull out before the game. Maybe if a player or two gets injured he'll get drafted in and all will be well.

[Stuttgart88]

what are you on about stutts?

Just simple mathematics Paul

[Stuttgart88]

McCarthy aside, the key now is to pick a useful team for Wales.

A back 4 of Foley-Dunne-O'Shea-Clark would go a long way to appeasing my disappointment about McCarthy, as would the selection of at least one of Wilson and Fahey in central midfield, maybe even both, and a bold selection upfront.

Kilbane and Green in the starting XI would exasperate me.

[Razors left peg]

Trap has already said that Robbie will start because he needs a confidence boost and that Coleman will be a sub. I think we are looking at more of the same with very little learned to be honest

[ArdeeBhoy]

So much for the Celtic Cup being a 'useful exercise' for us....
We might as well go back to arguing about the politics of the event.

Joke.

Though that would be more interesting!

[Sullivinho]

Trap has already said that Robbie will start because he needs a confidence boost and that Coleman will be a sub. I think we are looking at more of the same with very little learned to be honest

Very disappointed if this is true and I have no reason to doubt you. I have a lot of time for Liam Lawrence but a cameo in a friendly is an insult to the progress Coleman has made. And if we're talking a sub appearance, it'l be late in the second half. I remember seeing an interview with him before the Norway game and he spoke like a player who had been guaranteed some game time. Trap's substitutions on the night undermined that and made him look like a right dreamer in retrospect.

[Razors left peg]

Very disappointed if this is true and I have no reason to doubt you. I have a lot of time for Liam Lawrence but a cameo in a friendly is an insult to the progress Coleman has made. And if we're talking a sub appearance, it'l be late in the second half. I remember seeing an interview with him before the Norway game and he spoke like a player who had been guaranteed some game time. Trap's substitutions on the night undermined that and made him look like a right dreamer in retrospect.

I dont have the quote as I read it in the Star but if was from his press conference the other day. He was saying something along the lines that Coleman is a right back and he didnt wanna start him against Bale so maybe O Shea would start there and we will see Coleman later in the game

[Noelys Guitar]

I dont have the quote as I read it in the Star but if was from his press conference the other day. He was saying something along the lines that Coleman is a right back and he didnt wanna start him against Bale so maybe O Shea would start there and we will see Coleman later in the game

Thats exactly what he said. And Clark has a hamstring injury so not sure if he is going to join up with the squad. In reference to what Irishfan was saying I don't believe McCarthy has any intention of switching back to Scotland. I want a journo to ask him why did Trap not pick you. Hes not injured. Hes playing well an scoring. Why wait until a team with Green and Whelan messes up against Macedonia. This should be brought to a head now. It is a bizarre squad selection again and we are heading into swiss at home territory under Mick. Who honestly believes that the Irish team that starts against Macedonia will not feature Green, Whelan, Kilbane and Keane as captain?

[Wolfie]

Appears a lot of us are losing patience - Trapps next team selection will be a pivotal moment of his tenure as manager.

I think many of us want to see Clarke, Long, Coleman starting. I'd like to see Treacy again also.

There's a growing frustration amongst even the more moderate posters that the best team is not being given a chance to develop.

[Supreme feet]

Back in May, it was apparent that the Paris '09 XI would be sufficient as a base for the Irish squad to build on. Throw in Cunningham at LB and gradually bring other players like McCarthy and Meyler into the set-up. It all seemed so simple, and Trap looked like he knew what he was doing. He included McCarthy, Cunningham and Meyler in the May friendly squad, and I looked forward to a smooth, easy transition.

However, since then, Given, Whelan and Keane have stagnated at their clubs, Lawrence has dropped a division, St. Ledger hasn't progressed at club level, and Andrews has been injured and may not get his place back with Blackburn. If the six I've mentioned were playing week-in-week-out, there wouldn't be too many issues. Trap has been very unlucky about what's happened to our experienced, senior players at their clubs. He can't help if players are dropped, or get injured. However, by persisting with Green, Gibson, Kilbane, O'Dea and McShane in the squad, he makes himself very hard to defend at times.

Trap's now in a situation where people will be baying for his blood unless he throws at least four hitherto-uncapped, under-23 players into the starting XI against Macedonia. And he won't do that - it'd be a huge risk for any international manager. McCarthy was quite progressive, but he always kept faith with Carsley, Holland, Breen, Gary Kelly etc, when fans and journos were crying for their heads. When we last qualified for the WC, it was a very experienced team with an average age of about 28 or 29, as it is for most teams who qualify for anything. However, youth seems like the only option now, since such misery surrounds our first-choice team. The Paris XI, playing regularly for their clubs, even with Kilbane at LB, would be good enough to beat Macedonia home and away, but unfortunately, that team seems to have fallen apart through injury and club circumstances, and Trap is being asked by the fans to build a new team mid-way through a campaign. A team with Cunningham, Clarke, Duffy, Coleman, Meyler and McCarthy playing together is mouth-watering for the future, but for Macedonia away in June?

A common-sense blend of youth and experience is the answer, and how well Trap manages that situation will define his tenure as Irish manager.

[Stuttgart88]

Great post Supreme Feet, but the timing of "how well Trap manages that situation" is critical. The home defeat and the careless manner in which we failed to kill off Slovakia leaves no margin for error in the next two games. We wasted an opportunity to try one or two fresh options in November and the smart money says that the Wales game will see a similar opportunity slip by. That means that come Macedonia no real plan B will have been looked at, though Long & Fahey have played themselves into the reckoning I suppose.

It is true that the Given, Keane, Andrews, Cunningham & Whelan situations were impossible to have foreseen, as was McCarthy's injury. You're also right that 5 or 6 youngsters playing against Macedonia is too risky, but players like Foley & Coleman are screaming for a decent look. I'm pretty sure Marc Wilson can run around and try in vain to tackle just as well as Green did against Russia.

[Noelys Guitar]

Back in May, it was apparent that the Paris '09 XI would be sufficient as a base for the Irish squad to build on. Throw in Cunningham at LB and gradually bring other players like McCarthy and Meyler into the set-up. It all seemed so simple, and Trap looked like he knew what he was doing. He included McCarthy, Cunningham and Meyler in the May friendly squad, and I looked forward to a smooth, easy transition.

However, since then, Given, Whelan and Keane have stagnated at their clubs, Lawrence has dropped a division, St. Ledger hasn't progressed at club level, and Andrews has been injured and may not get his place back with Blackburn. If the six I've mentioned were playing week-in-week-out, there wouldn't be too many issues. Trap has been very unlucky about what's happened to our experienced, senior players at their clubs. He can't help if players are dropped, or get injured. However, by persisting with Green, Gibson, Kilbane, O'Dea and McShane in the squad, he makes himself very hard to defend at times. Trap's now in a situation where people will be baying for his blood unless he throws at least four hitherto-uncapped, under-23 players into the starting XI against Macedonia. And he won't do that - it'd be a huge risk for any international manager. McCarthy was quite progressive, but he always kept faith with Carsley, Holland, Breen, Gary Kelly etc, when fans and journos were crying for their heads. When we last qualified for the WC, it was a very experienced team with an average age of about 28 or 29, as it is for most teams who qualify for anything. However, youth seems like the only option now, since such misery surrounds our first-choice team. The Paris XI, playing regularly for their clubs, even with Kilbane at LB, would be good enough to beat Macedonia home and away, but unfortunately, that team seems to have fallen apart through injury and club circumstances, and Trap is being asked by the fans to build a new team mid-way through a campaign. A team with Cunningham, Clarke, Duffy, Coleman, Meyler and McCarthy playing together is mouth-watering for the future, but for Macedonia away in June?

A common-sense blend of youth and experience is the answer, and how well Trap manages that situation will define his tenure as Irish manager.

We are playing Macedonia at home on the 26th of March. That is our next competitive match. And Trap is not being asked to build a team halfway through this campaign. He has had ample opportunities to play the young players mentioned but has either refused to pick them or not play them when they have been called up (and I'm talking about previous friendly games). We are talking here about players playing week in week out in the Premiership and Trap is overlooking them for players not playing for their clubs, or playing in the championship or 1st division. The list is endless. Its like what Giles said about Staunton's selections. "Turn the team sheet upside down and it would make more sense".