Celtic Cup thread

[geysir]

Well if you want to recruit players like Camp, then you will have to. For Article 17 requires just that, namely:

Any player who refers to art. 15 par.1 to assume a new nationality... ... shall be eligible to play for the new representative team only if he fulfils one of the following conditions:
(a ) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(b ) His biological mother ot biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(c ) His grandfather or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(d ) He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association.

Players like Darron Gibson (born in Ireland) or Anton Rogers (son of someone born in Ireland) qualify for the FAI under Article 15, since they are automatically Irish citizens from birth. Camp is not automatically an Irish citizen, since a grandfather is not adequate to confer citizenship on him automatically at birth .

Of course, Camp could always apply for Irish citizenship and expect to be successful. But the fact of his having to apply means that he does not qualify under Article 15, as eg Gibson and Rogers do.

Consequently Camp would be "assuming a new Nationality", therefore he would need to satisfy the criteria of Article 17 (above). And by any rational reading of the language of Art.17, in Camp's case, his grandfather would have to have been born "on the territory of the relevant Association" for Camp to be eligible to represent the relevant Association (FAI).

So which is it, Geysir? Is NI within the "territory of the FAI" or is it not?

Where in FIFA's eligibility articles do they include the phrase "a territory that [an Association may] draw its players from"?

Be honest, in order to defend your claim, you were forced to make it up.

And I have to say, it wasn't even a very intelligent fabrication, either. For if you take eg England, Scotland, Holland and USA, those are all "territories" which the FAI "draws its players from", but that hardly means that any of them constitute the "territory of the relevant Association " [FAI], as per Article 17.

It is beyond even me to explain in termsthat you can understand. Considering that you have not been right on any important aspect of eligibility that requires objective analysis in over a few hundred posts on the matter, I hereby request you to cease cluttering up this forum with your waffle which has been proven to one and all, time and time again, to be total nonsense.

[Not Brazil]

You are way too hasty, I have already referred to the old rule, annex 901 which is unchanged, now known as article 17.

Annex 901 became article 17c , eligible if- 'His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association'
It goes without saying that he would have to acquire Irish nationality.

Northern Ireland is the territory of the Irish Football Association, not the Football Association Of Ireland.

You need to think again about how Bruce was eligible to play for the Football Association of Ireland.

[EalingGreen]

But does Gibson's nationality not derive entirely from the territory in which he was born (notwithstanding certain discriminatory exemptions)?

Yes it does, but for FIFA's eligibility purposes, that's just a by-the-by.

The point is that Gibson qualifies to represent the FAI because he is automatically an Irish citizen from birth, and thereby complies with Article 15:

1. Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependant on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the Association of that country.

But people born anywhere else in the world to an Irish-born parent also hold "a permanent nationality that is not dependant on residence in a certain country". Consequently they are also entitled to represent the FAI.

However, people like Camp, who only have an Irish-born grandparent, do not automatically qualify for Irish citizenship from birth, therefore may not rely upon Article 15.

Of course, they may apply for Irish citizenship, but assuming they are successful, they then have to satisfy Article 17, which requires them either to have been born in the FAI's territory, have a parent/grandfather who was so born, or have themselves have resided in that territory (for five years after turning 18).

And Lee Camp does not meet any of those qualifying requirements.

[EalingGreen]

It is beyond even me to explain in termsthat you can understand. Considering that you have not been right on any important aspect of eligibility that requires objective analysis in over a few hundred posts on the matter, I hereby request you to cease cluttering up this forum with your waffle which has been proven to one and all, time and time again, to be total nonsense.

Simple question: Do you consider that Northern Ireland constitutes "the territory of the FAI"?

Yes or No?

[paul_oshea]

"But people born anywhere else in the world to an Irish-born parent also hold "a permanent nationality that is not dependant on residence in a certain country". Consequently they are also entitled to represent the FAI.

However, people like Camp, who only have an Irish-born grandparent, do not automatically qualify for Irish citizenship from birth, therefore may not rely upon Article 15."

How does it differentiate between a parent and grandparent, Irish citizenship is available to anyone who has a grandparent of Irish nationality.

Just a quick answer please

[Not Brazil]

Irish citizenship is available to anyone who has a grandparent of Irish nationality.

Is that automatic?

[EalingGreen]

"But people born anywhere else in the world to an Irish-born parent also hold "a permanent nationality that is not dependant on residence in a certain country". Consequently they are also entitled to represent the FAI.

However, people like Camp, who only have an Irish-born grandparent, do not automatically qualify for Irish citizenship from birth, therefore may not rely upon Article 15."

How does it differentiate between a parent and grandparent, Irish citizenship is available to anyone who has a grandparent of Irish nationality.

Just a quick answer please

Someone who is born in Ireland, or who has a parent who was born in Ireland, is automatically an Irish citizen from birth.

Whereas someone who only has a grandparent who was born in Ireland has to apply for Irish citizenship i.e. it is not automatic.

The former category are therefore eligible to represent the FAI under Art.15, whereas the latter are not.

Rather, this latter category must rely upon Art.17 ("Acquisition of a new nationality"), which as well as requiring the relevant Nationality, also demands birth in the territory, or a parent/grandparent born in the territory, or residence in the territory.

Camp is British. He may apply for Irish citizenship in addition. But should he do so successfully, he will be deemed by FIFA to be "acquiring a new nationality", in which case he will also need to meet one of the four additional requirements.

So unless you construe NI to be "the territory of the FAI", then he does not do so.

Consequently it must be incumbent upon those claiming that Camp is eligible to represent the FAI to demonstrate how Belfast (NI) is part of the territory of the FAI (or cite some other Article under which Camp may be eligible).

That's as concisely as I believe it can be explained.

Unless you're Geysir...

[EalingGreen]

Is that automatic?

No.

See http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Infor...-%20140709.pdf

[Not Brazil]

No.

See http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Infor...0-20140709.pdf

So there is a "differentiation" between parent and grandparent.

[paul_oshea]

Is that automatic?

What do you mean by automatic, that they don't have to apply passport photos and proof to get their passport?

"If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born outside Ireland, and any of your grandparents was born in Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen"

So although I think your meaning of automatic is different to above, if you have an irish grandparent who was born on the island of ireland and their children "HOLDS" Irish nationality, i would gather this means has an irish passport then you are automatically entitled to it.

"If the parent through whom you derive Irish citizenship was not alive at the time of your birth, but would have been an Irish citizen if alive at that time, you are also an Irish citizen"

Again this must go back a generation(or 2) so if one had a grandparent who died, as long as their father/mother acquired irish citizenship - by the above means, then you could too.

"Apply" surely means registration, as proof. Surely its still technically qualifed as automatic because you are once registered. no? Its not like you have to prove residency or any other criteria other than register your birth, to automatically qualify for Irish citizenship.

[Not Brazil]

What do you mean by automatic, that they don't have to apply passport photos and proof to get their passport?

"If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born outside Ireland, and any of your grandparents was born in Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen"

So although I think your meaning of automatic is different to above, if you have an irish grandparent who was born on the island of ireland and their children "HOLDS" Irish nationality, i would gather this means has an irish passport then you are automatically entitled to it.

"If the parent through whom you derive Irish citizenship was not alive at the time of your birth, but would have been an Irish citizen if alive at that time, you are also an Irish citizen"

Again this must go back a generation(or 2) so if one had a grandparent who died, as long as their father/mother acquired irish citizenship - by the above means, then you could too.

"Apply" surely means registration, as proof. Surely its still technically qualifed as automatic because you are once registered. no? Its not like you have to prove residency or any other criteria other than register your birth, to automatically qualify for Irish citizenship.

Don't know what passports has to do with it, but anyway....

So, someone born outside of Ireland, who had a granny or granda born in Ireland, can APPLY to become a Citizen of the Republic Of Ireland ie. it is not a birthright, and automatic?

[paul_oshea]

Well to have citizenship gives you the right to a passport, but that was just trying to decipher between what automatic means.

But what exactly does automatic mean? Look at the box:

A born in the island of Ireland entitled to Irish citizenship or an Irish citizen.
C child of B and a grandchild of A, born outside the island of Ireland entitled to Irish citizenship

What exactly does entitlement mean? Purely from an administration point of view, how could Ireland just keep issusing citizenship, how could it keep track. To me entitlement means very little, it just ensures that the onus is not on the irish state, and therefore no administration on their side, but allows an individual automatic citizenship on proof of the above criteria. Automatic meaning no criteria in terms of residency etc.

I'm not sure automatic/entitlement matter here really.

[EalingGreen]

So there is a "differentiation" between parent and grandparent.

Indeed.

And that's not me saying so, it is the Irish Government.

But no doubt Geysir* will question their competence to have determined thus.


* - Hopefully after he has addressed my own simple Yes/No question from earlier...

[EalingGreen]

What do you mean by automatic, that they don't have to apply passport photos and proof to get their passport?

"If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born outside Ireland, and any of your grandparents was born in Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen"

So although I think your meaning of automatic is different to above, if you have an irish grandparent who was born on the island of ireland and their children "HOLDS" Irish nationality, i would gather this means has an irish passport then you are automatically entitled to it.

"If the parent through whom you derive Irish citizenship was not alive at the time of your birth, but would have been an Irish citizen if alive at that time, you are also an Irish citizen"

Again this must go back a generation(or 2) so if one had a grandparent who died, as long as their father/mother acquired irish citizenship - by the above means, then you could too.

"Apply" surely means registration, as proof. Surely its still technically qualifed as automatic because you are once registered. no? Its not like you have to prove residency or any other criteria other than register your birth, to automatically qualify for Irish citizenship.

The key phrase in that is "entitled to become".

Someone who is so-entitled cannot logically already be an Irish national. Therefore he/she must apply to become one. And since such a person will almost certainly already have some sort of nationality*, then any application to become an Irish national must mean, in footballing terms, that they are "acquiring a new nationality" (Art.17).

And for the purposes of Art.17, unless the player himself, or a parent/grandparent, was born "in the territory of the relevant Association", then Art.17 does not help him.

In which case, the only way someone like Camp could be eligible to play for the ROI would be if the FAI could demonstrate that Belfast is part of "their territory".

Back to you, Paul.


* - I know some people are stateless, but Camp is undeniably British.

[Predator]

So, the Celtic Cup eh?

Don't we already have a thread for discussion of the eligibility rules?

[geysir]

Northern Ireland is the territory of the Irish Football Association, not the Football Association Of Ireland.

NI is a region/a territory which is under the total control of the IFA.

You need to think again about how Bruce was eligible to play for the Football Association of Ireland.

I have already thought about it. He has qualified because he qualified for Irish nationality based on his NI born grandparent.

[tetsujin1979]

So, the Celtic Cup eh?

Don't we already have a thread for discussion of the eligibility rules?

doesn't every thread get sucked into that particular black hole?

[shakermaker1982]

Predictions of our starting 11 on Tuesday?

Given

O'Shea Dunne St Ledger Clark

Lawrence Green Whelan Duff

Keane Doyle

I'd like to see Coleman and McCarthy play from the start but the rest of the team picks itself. Might be worth giving Westwood a run out as well. I think we should be able to beat an under strength Welsh team (no Bellamy or Bale). 2-1.

[geysir]

Probably only Clark will start but I'd hope the outcome will be, that by time we line out against Macedonia, Trap will have the required confidence to start all 3 (Clark Coleman and McCarthy).

[Sullivinho]

Predictions of our starting 11 on Tuesday?

Given

O'Shea Dunne St Ledger Clark

Lawrence Green Whelan Duff

Keane Doyle

Ditto. I'd expect any deviation from that to be the result of someone pulling out. Big opportunity for Clark. I'd also like to see Coleman, McCarthy and Long. 2-1 for me too.