Celtic Cup thread

[gastric]

Just out of bed here in Oz and the debate continues. In relation to comments made by NB and GA about my lack of interest in who wins this game, let's get to the heart of it.
Too many NI supporters use soccer as a political vehicle. It's not about sport for them. This is why so many follow Rangers and why the IFA display such a myopic attitude. The CAS case was an attempt to appease such supporters and to answer one point made by Gather Around, if Irish supporters sent bullets to their own team or looked upon winning such a game in political terms or engaged in violence I would abhor their conduct too.
NI soccer is too seeped in Protestant political tradition and hatred of others for me to see this game as nothing more than a return to the tragedy of the past, and holds less interest to me than our last friendly against Norway which as you know we lost!

[shakermaker1982]

I really wish the Celtic Cup followed the format of the old British home championship so that each country plays home and away instead of playing every game at the Aviva. I'd be surprised if the Vauxhall tournament has every game at Wembley.

I'm not sure what to make of the Celtic Cup. I'm looking forward to the Northern Ireland game because that will have a bit of bite to it but I remember Wales at Croke Park. Wales brought about 6 fans (it was a competitive international) and it was a proper snooze fest.

I'd have preferred if we had to travel to Cardiff, Glasgow or Belfast for at least one of the games so if the game is below par then you've always got new bars to drink in!

[ArdeeBhoy]

SM's last paragraph is spot on! And good stuff by our Melbourne correspondent;they won't like that mind!

To be fair, the Welsh brought a lot (without filling The Hill) to the Qualifier, in it, was the Euros? It seems so long ago....

[Charlie Darwin]

As a traditionalist, I would prefer to see the former; also because it would have the side-effect of excluding the (cash-strapped) FAI from participating in a potentially lucrative money-spinner.

You mischievous rascal!

I suspect the FA would be particularly interested in getting the FAI involved because we're the only country (and Scotland when they feel like it) that could be relied upon to fill Wembley for an international.

[Gather round]

As in it would sell out Wembley and should be worth c.£1 million to each of the, er, Irish associations

As you're so keen on novelty, why not concentrate on qulifying for a few more tournaments? That way, you'd get to see lots of new places/ teams etc. in Ukraine, Brazil and the up-country Urals. Failing that, just merge with England and stop posting nonsense.

Bale* 'wants' to play for a GB Olympic team and a Mr.C.Brunt suggested interest also, when mentioned to him

Told you personally, did they? The GB team ain't happening, get over it.

Too many NI supporters use soccer as a political vehicle. It's not about sport for them

Rest assured, it is. There's little political clout in supporting a mediocre football team.

As for the player eligibility row, you're right that it reflects badly on the IFA and many fans. It's a bit of a leap from that to dismising the entire support: football administrators often act foolishly. Remember the team 33 row barely a year ago?

This is why so many follow Rangers

Many do for broadly the same reasons that fans all over Ireland support Celtic (ie they're successful, nearby and historically linked). See also Manchester United and Liverpool.

to answer one point made by Gather Around, if Irish supporters sent bullets to their own team or engaged in violence I would abhor their conduct too

I should hope so too. BTW, you're continuing to avoid my other point, which I'll repeat: if you're uninterested in a friendly against NI because many of our fans are so violent/ obsessed by party politics, would you be equally bored were it a qualifier? To the extent that you'd suggest to the FAI they didn't even play the game? If so, fair enough, at least it's consistent eccentricity. If not, you're a hypocrite: the Republic of Ireland and its fans are just as likely to use nationalistic wab-waving to drum up interest in a crucial game against local rivals. That's why so many of them are fascinated by a return match with England (hopefully lasting 90 minutes next time), and incidentally why England playing a competitive game against almost any third country will get a big audience on RTE.

NI soccer is too seeped in Protestant political tradition and hatred of others

Ill-informed nonsense. The last manager and assistant manager, and about half the current squad are Roman Catholics. Any of whom are welcomed to play or support the game. Unless of course you simply equate there being an NI team with the hatred and chip-on-shoulder. In which case, I suggest you head into town next time the Poms arrive to thrash Australia

Anyway, sweet dreams. All bound for Mornington, many miles away.

I'd have preferred if we had to travel to Cardiff, Glasgow or Belfast for at least one of the games so if the game is below par then you've always got new bars to drink in!

Agreed. But, as Ray Kennedy would say, we are where we are...

=Charlie Darwin]we're the only country (and Scotland when they feel like it) that could be relied upon to fill Wembley for an international

Remember these are friendlies, effectively. Maybe none of the games would sell out. Against that, when Wales and NI played England in Wc 2006 qualifying, we both sold out Old Trafford. A couple of years earlier, your boys couldn't half-fill Charlton Athletic against Nigeria and Jamaica.

[gastric]

you're continuing to avoid my other point, which I'll repeat: if you're uninterested in a friendly against NI because many of our fans are so violent/ obsessed by party politics, would you be equally bored were it a qualifier?

Gather Around, the answer is yes!

Secondly, I will grant that there has been progress in regards to the supporters' treatment of Catholics, but all that has happened is that they have moved from the Stone Age to the Iron Age. I will repeat again many of the NI supporters and the IFA continue to display a historic attitude to the South and all that goes with it that is antiquated and insular.

In regards to your comments about Catholics supporting Celtic, the history of Protestant vs. Catholic crap is one I am over too. I have interest in the Irish lads who play at Celtic just as I have interest in following the progress of Alan Smith from Dublin who is with Rangers. Hopefully you are now getting my point, when all the bulls##t that involves sectarianism and other political crap is removed from what essentially sport should be about - passion, camardarie, fair play and enjoyment, then I will happily watch a game involving NI.

[Gather round]

but all that has happened is that they have moved from the Stone Age to the Iron Age

What are you Aussie Boy, 12? Your own attitudes don't seem to have progressed much since the primordial soup.

I will repeat again many of the NI supporters and the IFA continue to display a historic attitude to the South and all that goes with it that is antiquated and insular

The IFA says it is committed to a good working relationship with the FAI; evidence being both taking part in this cup. All that the fans' "historic [and] antiquated" attitude means is that we've seen you as a rival for a long time. See also both of us vis a vis England, Germany with Netherlands etc. etc. The insular reference is nonsense- both NI and RoI have been entering the World Cup and Euros with up to 200 other teams, for decades.

In regards to your comments about Catholics supporting Celtic, the history of Protestant vs. Catholic crap is one I am over too. I have interest in the Irish lads who play at Celtic just as I have interest in following the progress of Alan Smith from Dublin who is with Rangers

You don't seem to have understood my point (simply that some Irish people support Rangers for much the same reasons others support Celtic, or ManU or Liverpool). Not primarily because they hate Catholics/ Protestants/ people from elsewhere in Lancashire.

Hopefully you are now getting my point, when all the bulls##t that involves sectarianism and other political crap is removed from what essentially sport should be about - passion, camardarie, fair play and enjoyment, then I will happily watch a game involving NI

I got your point immediately. It still doesn't make much sense. "Political crap" (or as I'd prefer, nationalistic rivalry) follows almost inevitably from international sport. If you don't like it, as well as Northern Ireland you should be shunning all games involving the Republic and every other country.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Even the Aussies are more sophisticated than yer average unionist to be fair....S'truth.

The 'rivalry' thing is a joke;it's only since the 'alleged' 'poaching' row, that your lot took even the slightest interest in the main. Prior to '02 it was complete apathy.

And the geographical 'point' seems as misguided as ever.

[ArdeeBhoy]

As you're so keen on novelty, why not concentrate on qulifying for a few more tournaments? That way, you'd get to see lots of new places/ teams etc. in Ukraine, Brazil and the up-country Urals. Failing that, just merge with England and stop posting nonsense.

Not sure that has anything to do with The Eng.FA's 2013 tournament besides repeating your own tired view of the world. If any 'Irish' team merges with the Ingles, it won't be us!
And isn't it 25 years and counting......

The GB team ain't happening, get over it.

You'd better take it up with Messrs. Bale & Brunt next time it's in the media.... It's a one-off', so "get over it", as you might say.

There's little political clout in supporting a mediocre football team.

As for the player eligibility row, you're right that it reflects badly on the IFA and many fans. It's a bit of a leap from that to dismising the entire support: football administrators often act foolishly. Remember the team 33 row barely a year ago?

Especially when anyone suggests a UI team even for a 'one-off' game;nothing 'political' about those objections??
Lol.
As for 'Team 33', that was JD's idea. If FIFA hadn't dealt with the whole thing in such a crass manner, then those extreme suggestions would never have surfaced.
They are the World leaders in Incompetence in football admin.

BTW, you're continuing to avoid my other point, which I'll repeat: if you're uninterested in a friendly against NI because many of our fans are so violent/ obsessed by party politics, would you be equally bored were it a qualifier? To the extent that you'd suggest to the FAI they didn't even play the game? If so, fair enough, at least it's consistent eccentricity. If not, you're a hypocrite: the Republic of Ireland and its fans are just as likely to use nationalistic wab-waving to drum up interest in a crucial game against local rivals.

Don't bother;It's as unclear now as it was then.

Incidentally any 'third party interest' in Ingerland would be down to the profile of the PL & if it was glamour opposition. And suspect 95% of any nominal RTE viewers would want them to lose?? Except RTE don't tend to broadcast their games, unless they play Ireland....

The last manager and assistant manager, and about half the current squad are Roman Catholics. Any of whom are welcomed to play or support the game. Unless of course you simply equate there being an NI team with the hatred and chip-on-shoulder. In which case, I suggest you head into town next time the Poms arrive to thrash Australia

Not for much longer, if people keep being sent dubious packages? Hardly an enticement. Not to mention a certain Swiss edict.
It's not about 'hatred', but expression of identity, which the current official flag & anthem of the North do nothing to appeal to those who see themselves as Irish.

The other analogy as ever, makes no sense.

Remember these are friendlies, effectively. Maybe none of the games would sell out. Against that, when Wales and NI played England in Wc 2006 qualifying, we both sold out Old Trafford. A couple of years earlier, your boys couldn't half-fill Charlton Athletic against Nigeria and Jamaica.

Except the WCQ's were 90% Ingerland fans. And a slight novelty value, albeit v. cannon fodder.
The other was a misguided tournament, the Welsh or North would have brought < 1000 each.
At least Ireland had around 5k fans there! Even including a large fat man with bad dress sense.....

[SolitudeRed]

Just listening to some of the comments on here from the NI fans is confirmation if I needed any that they are not a team which can command my loyalty or support all this hatred of the South is rather depressing! Thats the North for you though I'm sure it works both ways but In general I don't think Republic fans really care that much about the 'IFA team'.

On a side note I wouldn't be opposed to seeing an all Ireland team even if it was just for a friendly like that Shamrock Rovers XI back in the day. There might be more support for it within the North than some NI fans care to acknowledge. It actually reminds me of when NI were on their worst run ever a few years ago and were only getting a few thousand at their games I remember the news were running items on whether it was time to do away with the NI team.

[Dodge]

Who'd have thunk it? Another thread that involved both ROI and NI descends into the usual ********

[Sullivinho]

Who'd have thunk it? Another thread that involved both ROI and NI descends into the usual ********

You have to appreciate the effort and dedication all the same. Those beautifully segmented quotes and point by point rebuttals don't create themselves.

[EalingGreen]

Who'd have thunk it? Another thread that involved both ROI and NI descends into the usual ********

Indeed.

Then maybe you can answer a couple of questions for me, Dodge.

In his two contributions to this thread, Gastric has posted the followng:

Post #181: NI fans are not interested in sport and use "soccer" [sic] as a political vehicle. Apparently they send bullets to their own players, look upon winning games solely in political terms and engage in violence. And soccer in NI is seeped in Protestant political tradition and hatred of others.

Post #186: NI fans are violent/obsessed by party politics, not having got beyond the Iron Age (from the Stone Age) in their treatment of Catholics, because their attitudes are historically insular and antiquated.

As someone who seems relatively "neutral" on such issues, do you think that that sort of sweeping and offensive generalisation by Gastric adds anything to the debate? And as a regular, long-time poster etc, how long do you think I'd last on this Board if I were to post something equivalent about ROI fans?

For it seems to me that whilst the great majority of posters on this Board can calmly and constructively debate the various issues between the two teams etc, there is a small band which consistently goes beyond the issues and takes the opportunity to attack the NI fanbase, with all sorts of wild and unsupported allegations.

Then when Gather Round, Not Brazil and myself etc seek to defend ourselves, we then get denigrated equally with the aggressors.

[osarusan]

there is a small band which consistently goes beyond the issues and takes the opportunity to attack the NI fanbase, with all sorts of wild and unsupported allegations.

And you consistently take the bait and engage them in 'debate'.

Why? You surely don't expect to actually change their mind, do you?

All that happens, again and again, is the same arguments, counter-arguments, insults and counter-insults, bulls**t and counter-bulls**t gets trotted out, with nobody ever changing anybody's mind about anything, nor (I'd imagine) having any hope or expectation of doing so.

[Dodge]

Then maybe you can answer a couple of questions for me, Dodge.

I'll answer questions when you stop being a blow hard and realise that beneath your long, long posts you're as petty as some of the thicks that are arguing with you.

Not only are these circular debates extremely boring, they solve nothing. Everyone who posts once on the subject has the exact same position 20 posts later. So maybe, just maybe peoplee could state their position once, and leave it at that.

And then we can have a discussion on the merits of Scotland v NI in Dublin, of a combined GB Olympic team or any of the actual football topics that exist

[EalingGreen]

Just listening to some of the comments on here from the NI fans is confirmation if I needed any that they are not a team which can command my loyalty or support all this hatred of the South is rather depressing!

Interesting take on the debate, there, SR. In my previous post, I highlighted the vitriol directed against the NI team and its fans etc by Gastric; as usual, Ardhee Bhoy (and others) weren't far behind. Can you point to equivalent abuse by NI fans on this thread?

Thats the North for you though I'm sure it works both ways but In general I don't think Republic fans really care that much about the 'IFA team'.

If that is so, why do the likes of Gastric, AB, Geysir, Third Policeman and IFK etc devote so much time to posting about it?

On a side note I wouldn't be opposed to seeing an all Ireland team even if it was just for a friendly like that Shamrock Rovers XI back in the day. There might be more support for it within the North than some NI fans care to acknowledge.

On what do you base that opinion? Have you spoken to many NI fans about it? For as someone who attends the majority of NI games, home and away, plus the occasional under-age game etc (and has been for decades), I can honestly say I've only ever met one NI fan who thinks that - and he's more of a rugby fan anyhow.
And as regards that famous Shamrock Rvrs XI specifically, I would point out that there is absolutley nothing to prevent someone restaging such a game, except that in the 37 years since(!), no-one has even bothered to try. What does that tell you about the appetite for a single Ireland team in the Republic, never mind that in NI?

It actually reminds me of when NI were on their worst run ever a few years ago and were only getting a few thousand at their games I remember the news were running items on whether it was time to do away with the NI team.

Ah right. On matters such as this, it is not the Associations, clubs or fans etc who get to set the agenda, rather it must be for radio phone-in hosts and tabloid newspaper editors stuck for a "story" on a slow news day to do so...
I don't know what age you are, SR, but I am old enough to remember when the "Eire" team (as it was known then) went six full years without a Home win (including 4 1/2 years without a win of any kind, when they beat Iran 2-1 at a neutral venue). And that run came during a first 70 years of existence when they failed to qualify for a single major finals. Indeed, considering it is now 10 years since your team last beat a ranking team in a competitive game, I hardly think you are in a position to promote "lack of success" as grounds for questioning the existence of our team, thanks very much...

And in any case, now that FIFA/CAS have confirmed that the FAI may select players from throughout ireland, you have effectively got an all-Ireland team to support. Therefore, if you would champion the right of eg Darron Gibson to choose to play for "Ireland" [sic], does it not make you hypocritical to call for an end to the NI team, thereby denying choice to those Irishmen, Protestant and Catholic, Unionist and Nationalist, who are happy to play for NI?

After all, if as an ROI fan, you "don't really care about" the NI team*, why are you bothered by our continued existence?

* - Even enough to call us by our proper title...

[EalingGreen]

And you consistently take the bait and engage them in 'debate'.

Why? You surely don't expect to actually change their mind, do you?

All that happens, again and again, is the same arguments, counter-arguments, insults and counter-insults, bulls**t and counter-bulls**t gets trotted out, with nobody ever changing anybody's mind about anything, nor (I'd imagine) having any hope or expectation of doing so.

So if I were consistently to abuse you and your team/fellow fans etc, with highly offensive distortions and lies etc, you would simply ignore it, then. Which explains why, for instance, when Bohs fans give out about Shams fans elsewhere in this forum, the latter do not respond (and vice versa).

Right.

[EalingGreen]

I'll answer questions when you stop being a blow hard and realise that beneath your long, long posts you're as petty as some of the thicks that are arguing with you.

Thanks. Very helpful.

Not only are these circular debates extremely boring, they solve nothing. Everyone who posts once on the subject has the exact same position 20 posts later. So maybe, just maybe peoplee could state their position once, and leave it at that.

Or maybe the Mods who are supposed to control the debate might intervene when certain posters make highly inflammatory, offensive and provocative generalisations etc about other members of the Board, thereby leading to more measured, focused discussion.

And then we can have a discussion on the merits of Scotland v NI in Dublin, of a combined GB Olympic team or any of the actual football topics that exist

I should be quite happy to participate in such discussion. However, if your reply to my considered and genuine questions to you are anything to go by, I won't hold my breath for anything too constructive from you...

[Drumcondra 69er]

Can we get back on topic please?

Ulster says No.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Who'd have thunk it? Another thread that involved both ROI and NI descends into the usual ********

And that a grand total of less than 10 people disagree?

To be fair to all parties, blame the Brits for invading us and then creating partition in the first place.
If they hadn't, there must have been some chance we'd have gone the way of a good no.of other sports and had a 'united' team.

We haven't, so the debate will remain into infinity, as in people will always wonder about the merits of a UI team, whilst others who feel its against their interests will disagree.

You may or may not have noticed this is an unavoidable (even if it was never mentioned on the entire web ever again!) extension of certain historical & cultural events in Ireland, which no doubt will be still played out for centuries to come, of which sport is just the tip of an iceberg. Though that is slowly declining....for now.