Sunderland lose on penalties

[NeilMcD]

what has that got to do wiht anything, who i support is irrelevant. if you cannot come up with a decent argument and back it up wth facts but so far your arguments seem to be

RMK is a ****** end of story

and I am a spurs fan,

i am suprised you have not been asked on to newsnight with debating skills like that

[only1kilbane]

Fair enough comment Neal at least you realise Mc Carthy is a decent manager. Im not saying hes the greatest manager sunderland or Ireland have had but if someone had said to me we would have done as well as we did I would have been delighted. With a couple of decent additions this summer prob on frees we can make a proper go for automatic promotion next season.

[NeilMcD]

Sorry to burst your bubble but i reckon you are destined to lose on a penatly shoot out but this time in the play off final having led 2-0 nill up with 10 minutes to go againsts ten men when mick decides to take off Kevin Kyle and Clinton Morrisson and bring on a debutant and another defender.

[tiktok]

I'm a fan of Roy Keane and have come out in his favour on here repeatedly. While I think McCarthy's man management left him down in Saipan I do think overall he did a good job with the Irish team.

He got us playing a brand of football that was far superior to anything we played under charlton (who didn't leave Mick much to work with to be fair) McCarthy did bring a lot of good young players through.

People will always point to certain games to show he was a good (1-0 at home to Holland, 2-0 at home to Croatia) or bad (losing a two goal lead away to Holland, the odd late equaliser) manager. Fact is, he was a decent manager (who maybe lacked a bit tactically) and a pretty amiable fella.

I certainly don't hate the man, and wish him well for the future. in fact I was hoping Sunderland would come up if only because their Irish contingent (which is considerable) would have been playing at a higher level of football, which could only benefit the current national side.

Not God, Not Satan, just Mick McCarthy.

[NeilMcD]

[QUOTE=davros]At last we agree....the sooner he retires,the better for Irish int.footy.....RMK has lost it so much these days......not even good enough for Sp*rs [/QUOTE

Sorry i was quoting you there, and i know spurs are terrible see i am one of these supporters that does not have blind faith in my team and i can admit when they are crap and when they are good and i will not argue in their favour just cause i support team. I like to deal with reality and not get lost in emotional nonsense and argue with my heart.

[finlma]

At last we agree....the sooner he retires,the better for Irish int.footy.....RMK has lost it so much these days......not even good enough for Sp*rs

Your comments are about as useful as a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

[Slash/ED]

It suits people to pretend that their analysis of McCarthy's weaknesses is something objective, but reality dictates that it will always be viewed through where people stand on Roy Keane.

complete and utter ********. I don't and never did rate McCarthy as a manager and was delighted when he left the Irish job, and I can't stand Keane as a person.

[lopez]

Conor - I hated McCarthy long before Saipan. I started hating him as a player. He summed up all that was rotten about the Charlton era. When he got the manager's job I seriously looked into changing nationality.

My nomination for the tosspot statement of the thread.

Summed up all that was rotten about the Charlton era? Bet you preferred the Hand era with the poor organisation that made Saipan look like something you find at the Australian Academy for sports; those moral victories against Israel (3-0); the fact that he was so lost in the post his leading players effectively ruled the changing room and the press conference; or that he would place McCarthy in a race with a journalist to prove a point. Sounds to me like it was the 'rotten Charlton era' that got you interested in the Irish team in the first place, because if you were around before, and gone to the odd game, you would have been struck in the face that Micky Mouse would be an improvement as manager. But hey, isn't the real reason why Hand is a better manager than McCarthy is because he is one of your own, true?

[WeAreRovers]

Sounds to me like it was the 'rotten Charlton era' that got you interested in the Irish team in the first place, because if you were around before, and gone to the odd game, you would have been struck in the face that Micky Mouse would be an improvement as manager. But hey, isn't the real reason why Hand is a better manager than McCarthy is because he is one of your own, true?

I was around before the Hand period. He was a clueless **** but his team tried to play football and he didn't shaft our greatest ever player unlike Charlton.

The last game I went to was the qualifier in Malta in 89. I went to an under 19 tournament in Holland with Rovers in 1990 rather than subject myself to to the muppets who'd latched onto Ireland (ie in Malta) and the dour anti-football of Charlton. How many games did we win in Italy? How many goals did we score?

To suggest that I base my opinion of Irish managers on their nationality is ridiculous and cheap (although it probably says a lot about your hang-ups re nationality).

If you want to talk Ireland managers then lets start with Liam Tuohy. Shafted by the FAI and then by Charlton - setting back our underage setup by years. Just ask Brian Kerr.

The Charlton/McCarthy era is and was nothing to be proud of. The damage they did is only now being fixed by Kerr. Maurice Setters alone did more damage than decades of FAI mismanagment.

KOH

[lopez]

I was around before the Hand period...

Apologies, I thought that the fact that you mention McCarthy and his 'mentor' Charlton as Ireland's worst two managers suggested to me two things: You don't like the English (having an English accent counts as a catch all here) or that you're a Johnny-come-lately. Sadly nothing you say dispels the first assumption, especially the fact that you preferred to watch a Shamrock Rovers u19 tournament than your country - or is it ex-country, I've forgotten - in the World's greatest tournament. Now a 'real' Irishman is back it sounds like things are different.

Hand tried great football?! . What great football. Can't remember any great football under Hand except his first campaign that was still endowed with the brilliant (considering what he had) but underrated management of Johnny Giles - a worthy candidate for Irish player of the century no matter what Keane fans may say - and I witnessed most of it. So we tried winning matches. It might not have been pretty but if I wanted pretty football played by the some of the best players in Europe I'd do what you thought about doing and change my nationality. As for Hand not shafting his players. No, there was never any chance of that was there?

And McCarthy followed the big Geordie's lead too? Well here I'm a bit confused as to your statement. But then if you haven't watched Ireland play since 1989, what opinion can you give about the difference - as stated by many here - in the attractiveness between McCarthy's game and Charlton's, seeing that is all that concerns you.

As for hang-ups over nationality, you're on the ball here pal. I will dispute any thinly disguised attack on this board about players or fans of Ireland who were born elsewhere. Most people don't have the decency to reply, but at least you have. Still, your lack of any objectivity, coupled with your laughable, brief desire to renounce your nationality because of McCarthy's appointment suggests this is a classic example of what I'm talking about. McCarthy was no Ernst Happel or Helenio Herrera. But he was the best available to a third rate football association paying a third rate wage in a country with a third rate interest in the domestic game. The fact he got us - well maybe not you - to a world cup (if it was players that get us to World Cups then why is it the manager that gets the sack?) is a minor miracle.

[Pat O' Banton]

I was around before the Hand period. He was a clueless **** but his team tried to play football and he didn't shaft our greatest ever player unlike Charlton.

The last game I went to was the qualifier in Malta in 89. I went to an under 19 tournament in Holland with Rovers in 1990 rather than subject myself to to the muppets who'd latched onto Ireland (ie in Malta) and the dour anti-football of Charlton. How many games did we win in Italy? How many goals did we score?

To suggest that I base my opinion of Irish managers on their nationality is ridiculous and cheap (although it probably says a lot about your hang-ups re nationality).

If you want to talk Ireland managers then lets start with Liam Tuohy. Shafted by the FAI and then by Charlton - setting back our underage setup by years. Just ask Brian Kerr.

The Charlton/McCarthy era is and was nothing to be proud of. The damage they did is only now being fixed by Kerr. Maurice Setters alone did more damage than decades of FAI mismanagment.

KOH

Oh yes the absolute classic. So what you wanted Ireland to go back to 4-1 home tankings by Norway just to keep people out of the Stadiums?

We won as many games in Italy in 1990 as World Cups that we'd qualified before that. Can you tell me what the answer to this riddle is?

Where exactly were the Irish team going before Charlton took over and where did he get us to. Yeah sure we'd all like to have watched Ireland play one touch football winning every game by five goals but it wasn't happening and in truth any sort of success was getting further and further away.

Still never mind I'm sure one day we can back to the moral purity of getting hammered in front of empty stands maybe that will entice you back to watch.

I'm no fan of Charlton the man but to say the man who guided us to three major finals left us nothing to be proud of defies lodgic.

[NeilMcD]

I tink the answer is somewhere in the middle, i think charlton orgainsed the team so that they were more efficient than before. But the job of a manager is to get the best out of the resources he has. I would argue that Charlton got 90% per cent out of the players but the ability to beat lesser teams somtimes let us down, we were well capable of drawing with HOlland, England Romania but when it came to beating Egypt or Lichtenstein we somtimes struggled. That was mainly due to the style of play which did not change whether we were playing Italy or Egypt, it still went long. Charltonw was also blessed with the finest talents Irish football had seen

Lets list the name of the players he had available in 87/88


Bonner / Mc Donagh


Morris/Hughton/Langan

McCarthy
Moran
Mc Grath
O Leary
Lawrenson

Beglin/Hughton

Brady
Whelan
Houghton
Sheedy
Galvin

Aldridge
Stapleton
Quinn
Cascarino

and there are probably more , but that is some squad of players and i would argue that we had a better team than england in 88. We probably should have expected more of ourselves, but then again because we had not qualified for a tournament before we had low self esteem which is understanable. I think it is a fact that Charlton did agood job for the present of irish football during his time. But he is not beyond criticism. Some times comments in here are over the top in both direction, wheither it be Mc Carthy is a ********, Keane is a Brat or a ****** or Charlton did nothing for irish football. Some sort of composure and level headedness is called for in my opinion

[WeAreRovers]

Sadly nothing you say dispels the first assumption, especially the fact that you preferred to watch a Shamrock Rovers u19 tournament than your country - or is it ex-country, I've forgotten - in the World's greatest tournament. Now a 'real' Irishman is back it sounds like things are different.

I've always put club before country like the majority of Man Utd and Liverpool fans with England, Juve, Milan, Inter and Roma fans with Italy. (Remember the Verona fan in A Season With Verona who said he always went fishing when Italy were playing?)

As a mate of mine once said - I'd rather see Rovers win a corner kick than Ireland win the World Cup. This is a perfectly normal attitude the world over.

Maybe you're confusing this attitude with an anti-Englishness. Believe me, Kerr or McCarthy, I still won't be following Ireland.

In Scum Airways, the book about the black market that has grown up around Man Utd and other English clubs in Europe, one of United's hardcore is quoted as saying "the true football fan hates his own club's board first and his international team second" Don't expect you to agree but it made me smile.

KOH

[Bowsy]

I've always put club before country like the majority of Man Utd and Liverpool fans with England, Juve, Milan, Inter and Roma fans with Italy. (Remember the Verona fan in A Season With Verona who said he always went fishing when Italy were playing?)

This attitude I can understand in Italy due their very socially divided history but in Ireland I find this bizarre. I would support Ireland play tiddly winks. National pride is the very foundation of our character as a people. If there are any Irish supporters who put Man U ahead of the national team I would be not shocked but appalled. Also not to support your country because of the manager is a ridiculous notion. Unless the FAI announce the next Ireland manager to be a recently defrosted from cryogenic stasis Adolf Hitler, how any Irishman could take this attitude is beyond me.

[Macy]

Man Yoo fans famously sing Argentina at games, though given what happened in the '86 and '98 WCs and the sending off of Beckham that was one a lot of people find hard to get their heads around.

It was because of the media assassination of Beckham after the sending off, and the reaction of England supporters to him that United started the Argentina songs. The River Plate Reds Argentina flag went down particularly well at Upton Park . It's mainly carried on because of the reaction of certain groups of fans - Chelsea, Leeds and West Ham spring particularly to mind, being such big In-ger-land fans that they are.... It continues to wind them up, and so the anti-england songs continue.

Anyway, club before country every time. The majority of those that go the other way don't tend to follow clubs that closely* in my experience.

* as in not going to matches week in, week out, home and away.

[Plastic Paddy]

Anyway, club before country every time. The majority of those that go the other way don't tend to follow clubs that closely* in my experience.

* as in not going to matches week in, week out, home and away.

I hate to be the fly in the ointment here Macy, but I don't agree. Every spare penny I have goes to pay for me watching Celtic. Granted, that's not every week, but it was as near as dammit (thankyou, oh thankyou, LT privilege pass) when I was a student and before I met the missus and settled down a bit. I'm rabid about my club, but even so, I put my country first. But maybe that's a 2G thing.

The phenomenon is slightly different with our Anglo cousins. The flags they bring with them to matches are usually adorned with the names of smaller clubs - the Darlingtons, Hartlepools and Telfords are represented far more frequently than the EPL sides. Why? I dunno. Just an observation, like...

PP

[Macy]

But maybe that's a 2G thing.

Don't think so

I hate to be the fly in the ointment here Macy, but I don't agree. Every spare penny I have goes to pay for me watching Celtic. Granted, that's not every week, but it was as near as dammit (thankyou, oh thankyou, LT privilege pass) when I was a student and before I met the missus and settled down a bit. I'm rabid about my club, but even so, I put my country first.

Firstly I did say the majority not everyone who puts country before club, secondly (and with respect and without casting aspersions at all) going as many Celtic games as you can afford isn't the same as going week in, week out. You're proving what I said in a way.

[Plastic Paddy]

Firstly I did say the majority not everyone who puts country before club, secondly (and with respect and without casting aspersions at all) going as many Celtic games as you can afford isn't the same as going week in, week out. You're proving what I said in a way.

Like I said, I used to travel up as a student from Birmingham almost week-in week-out in the early and mid-1990s. Usually made about 35 games a season. Right in the middle of Rankgers' 9IAR, so that wasn't much fun, let me tell you. (Can't do it now; the older you get, the more other commitments get in the way.) And even in the midst of all that football and travelling up and down the West Coast main line, I'd drop the lot to go and see Ireland.

PP

[Macy]

I'll still refer you back to the majority comment though

Anyway, an ice cold pint calls...

[Plastic Paddy]

I'll still refer you back to the majority comment though

Anyway, an ice cold pint calls...

Fair 'nuff. Have one for me.

PP