Barstool facepalm

**GUFCghost** · 06/04/2013, 7:06 PM

Most people weren't born into loving football homes like you and I.Football became popular in Ireland in an age of television and marketing and so English broadcasters took the opportunity to expand their markets,these are the origins of the "barstooler".

I don't think the problem is that people are too lazy,I think it's a poor product poorly marketed.

The way too improve the product is a League above the LOI. Not necessarily,I know you guys really don't like provinces/franchises.There could easily be a relegation/promotion system between the LOI and the Celtic/British Isles/whatever league.

People should feel like they have to support this new fanged monster league either.The twitter tag #supportingLOI makes people presume the league is weak and it needs their support,not a good tactic IMO.

The national team is going no where until this domestic mess is sorted.

**ped_ped** · 07/04/2013, 6:11 PM

We have a league, flawed and all as it may be. The suggestion to have a Celtic League above it actually disimproves our situation because while four, five or six clubs go into the Celtic League, every other club is now in a 'lower league'.

Regardless of size, there is room for a fully functional league structure with our Premier Division at the top of it. The product that's being marketed needs to be the experience, not the football.

When do the GAA use the spectacle of Gaelic games as their main draw? Never. '80,000 beating hearts' anyone? The tribalism is what's being promoted. And that can work with the League of Ireland too.

**gufcfan** · 07/04/2013, 7:42 PM

Originally Posted by ped_ped

We have a league, flawed and all as it may be. The suggestion to have a Celtic League above it actually disimproves our situation because while four, five or six clubs go into the Celtic League, every other club is now in a 'lower league'.

Agree completely with this. The same goes for an All-Ireland League. People go on about it, without giving any concrete argument for it, with reasonable arguments for the pros over the cons.

I believe there should be a pyramid. Some would argue that a country of our size cannot support one, but it isn't an argument that stands up imo. Looks at the north as an example. They have 40 teams in the top 3 tiers of their pyramid. The a team from 1 of the 4 regional leagues below the 3rd tier can replace the bottom team in Championship 2, if they meet the league requirements.

This is what we should be working towards. Whether the FAI member clubs would ever vote for such a thing... I don't know.

Originally Posted by ped_ped

Regardless of size, there is room for a fully functional league structure with our Premier Division at the top of it. The product that's being marketed needs to be the experience, not the football.

Not sure if I agree or not, but either way, promotion of the league is far from adequate. A change of tactic is one thing, but without the proper backing of the FAI...

**GUFCghost** · 07/04/2013, 8:06 PM

Originally Posted by ped_ped

We have a league, flawed and all as it may be. The suggestion to have a Celtic League above it actually disimproves our situation because while four, five or six clubs go into the Celtic League, every other club is now in a 'lower league'.

Regardless of size, there is room for a fully functional league structure with our Premier Division at the top of it. The product that's being marketed needs to be the experience, not the football.

When do the GAA use the spectacle of Gaelic games as their main draw? Never. '80,000 beating hearts' anyone? The tribalism is what's being promoted. And that can work with the League of Ireland too.

Obviously one could not ignore the LOI if such a league comes into reality,the Irish clubs promoted to the league wouldn't stand a chance.This is all hypothetical BTW,UEFA don't allow such leagues.

As ridiculous as it is,people feel tribal connections to cities they've never been to.It'll be tough to break those.

**Charlie Darwin** · 07/04/2013, 8:40 PM

Originally Posted by GUFCghost

Obviously one could not ignore the LOI if such a league comes into reality,the Irish clubs promoted to the league wouldn't stand a chance.This is all hypothetical BTW,UEFA don't allow such leagues.

Not strictly true: BeNe League and the proposed Balkan League. Liechtenstein clubs compete in the Swiss League.

**pineapple stu** · 07/04/2013, 8:41 PM

Propositions in recent times for a Czechoslovak league and a Russia/Ukraine league as well.

**legendz** · 07/04/2013, 9:16 PM

Originally Posted by ped_ped

We have a league, flawed and all as it may be. The suggestion to have a Celtic League above it actually disimproves our situation because while four, five or six clubs go into the Celtic League, every other club is now in a 'lower league'.

What flaws do you see in the league?

Originally Posted by gufcfan

I believe there should be a pyramid. Some would argue that a country of our size cannot support one, but it isn't an argument that stands up imo. Looks at the north as an example. They have 40 teams in the top 3 tiers of their pyramid. The a team from 1 of the 4 regional leagues below the 3rd tier can replace the bottom team in Championship 2, if they meet the league requirements.

This is what we should be working towards. Whether the FAI member clubs would ever vote for such a thing... I don't know.

I'm not so sure. Take a look at the intermediate leagues. Connaught will just about get a CSL off the ground, Ulster were looking for additional teams, the Munster senior league is Cork centric and the Leinster league is more or less Dublin centric. Nothing wrong with either being Cork or Dublin centric either if that's the history and traditions of those respective leagues. Limerick clubs have no interest in intermediary leagues.

Ideally it would be great to have some intermediary league to feed into the LoI. The A championship for one reason or another didn't work out. There's been no indication to suggest new clubs are not welcome to apply to join the League or Ireland. If a region or club want LoI football badly enough, they'll work to achieve it.

I think the LoI is healthy enough. The first division probably will take a few years to re-establish itself having lost a few clubs of quality without gaining any new clubs or replacement clubs of quality. I've enjoyed the few games I've taken in in Thomond and seen on TV. The marketing side is the let down. Nationally I'd like to see a promotion campaign using Ireland internationals who've come through the league. Not likely to happen.

**Charlie Darwin** · 07/04/2013, 9:22 PM

To add to that, I'd argue that we're possibly too big to have a proper pyramid. It works in the North because the geographical area is less than twice the size of Cork, and a great number of the clubs are based around Belfast. There's no journey the length of Dublin-Galway, let alone Derry-Cork. Plus I'm guessing the IFA don't make it financially unviable for most clubs to even apply for league status.

**Spudulika** · 07/04/2013, 9:33 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Propositions in recent times for a Czechoslovak league and a Russia/Ukraine league as well.

The Russia-Ukraine joke was a way for Gazprom to mess with figures and for their club to avoid the FFP rules. Was never going to get off the ground. There was a CIS league played in the winter break but the Champs of big countries just sent reserves and won handy.

There was the Baltic League, I don't know if it's going to be back though.

**Charlie Darwin** · 07/04/2013, 9:42 PM

Cross-border leagues actually make sense in the post-Comm region. I'd imagine there are a lot of fans out there who really miss the rivalries between the various workers' teams. Perhaps not in Russia/Ukraine considering the distances involved, but certainly in the former Yugoslavia.

**GUFCghost** · 07/04/2013, 10:45 PM

I think merged leagues are the only way clubs like Celtic and Ajax could compete in the Champions League,let alone Shamrock Rovers!That's a completely different thread all together though.

**Spudulika** · 08/04/2013, 3:42 AM

Agree 100% with you CD, here the only real crowds you get are when one of the associated clubs (Army, Secret Police, Meat Packers etc) play each other. PedPed mentions tribalism in the GAA, this is the only way football can grow, community vs community. We all know that most Junior or schoolboy clubs are too often based around a pub or couple of families, but that can be used to create something bigger.

Cross border leagues can work if there is the right money, marketing and support (from clubs and associations) behind it. You won't get much more tribal than one of the Nordy clubs playing a Republic team, so why not a cross border competition between the Island of Ireland, Wales and Scotland. Start with Champions from each playing in a pre-Euro warm up, even on a home and away knock-out basis with the final and 3/4 place match on the same day. It can be done in a week (Monday, Wednesday, Saturday) and the final venue can be in any of the 4 countries as all teams will play. It wouldn't take much to fund it and the first 2 years will provide a novelty value. And clubs use it to get ready for Europe. Done well it can turn a profit.

But 1 thing - not the Celtic league. We're not Celtic nations, never were, never could be! Next we'll be calling it the united christians against local games league or some such.

**DannyInvincible** · 08/04/2013, 6:32 AM

Originally Posted by Spudulika

But 1 thing - not the Celtic league. We're not Celtic nations, never were, never could be!

In what sense? I understand our closest genetic cousins are the Basques, but aren't our lingual heritages Celtic? Language can be culturally-defining.

**BonnieShels** · 08/04/2013, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

In what sense? I understand our closest genetic cousins are the Basques, but aren't our lingual heritages Celtic? Language can be culturally-defining.

There is a myth of "Celticism" but it was an overarching label of disparate groups that the lablers couldn't quite figure out. To Current Affairs with this.

**legendz** · 08/04/2013, 5:20 PM

I thought the Europa League was expanded to so satisfy countries like Scotland and Holland that were discussing a North Atlantic League group stage type competition? Probably a discussion for a different topic but I think the Europa League could benefit from the winner being entered into the Champions League. Delving a bit more on topic, 3rd placed CL group stage teams should not be parachuted in.

**Spudulika** · 08/04/2013, 7:02 PM

Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

In what sense? I understand our closest genetic cousins are the Basques, but aren't our lingual heritages Celtic? Language can be culturally-defining.

The myth of celticism came in with opium smoking eejits to counter the industrial revolution. It came back in vogue in the late-80's and especially the "I Keltoi" project of the EEC to "bond" Europe. The "Celts" were the cuddly, hippy, easygoing laid back people who were close to nature etc, so who wouldn't want to join up!

I take my lead from my studies, travels and very importantly from the late-Barry Raftery. It's a brand (as BS says).

**peadar1987** · 08/04/2013, 7:06 PM

Originally Posted by Spudulika

The myth of celticism came in with opium smoking eejits to counter the industrial revolution. It came back in vogue in the late-80's and especially the "I Keltoi" project of the EEC to "bond" Europe. The "Celts" were the cuddly, hippy, easygoing laid back people who were close to nature etc, so who wouldn't want to join up!

I take my lead from my studies, travels and very importantly from the late-Barry Raftery. It's a brand (as BS says).

I think a lot of Celtic identity stems from the expansion of several empires and cultural movements from the centre of Europe, which pushed the Celtic people culture to the fringes. Nowadays, what we'd have in common with the Galicians, Scots, Bretons and Welsh is more of a shared cultural memory of being on the periphery than a penchant for passage tombs and drawing pretty spirals on things.

**Spudulika** · 08/04/2013, 7:29 PM

But the issue Peadar (while you're right to a good degree about cultures being pushed) is that in Ireland there was no celtic invasion, movement or anything of the type. Population numbers remained stable, there was no record of destruction (evidence) there was no difference in settlement types or patterns and the most learned verdict is that there could have been traders, craftspeople or mild intermarrying going on. Remember we look now at Britain as being close, in the Bronze Age (and further back to the Neolithic) there was more of an Atlantic civilization from north west Africa through Iberia to west France to Ireland - with prevailing winds and currents.

There wasn't substantial movement away from (for example) the Roman empire - usually where they went the people were assimilated or enslaved, or killed off. When subsequent movements came from the north or east (goths, huns) those on the borders, including "barbarian peoples" ran into the empire for protection. When it comes to languages, if we were truly speaking a "celtic" language, we would be speaking a dialect of german.

Many years ago I was at a site in Germany, a massive hillfort, which my friends (also archies) were saying - it's celtic. Celtic was far preferable than germanic.

**DannyInvincible** · 09/04/2013, 9:34 AM

Originally Posted by Spudulika

The myth of celticism came in with opium smoking eejits to counter the industrial revolution. It came back in vogue in the late-80's and especially the "I Keltoi" project of the EEC to "bond" Europe. The "Celts" were the cuddly, hippy, easygoing laid back people who were close to nature etc, so who wouldn't want to join up!

I take my lead from my studies, travels and very importantly from the late-Barry Raftery. It's a brand (as BS says).

Have you read Eric Hobsbawm on the invention of tradition? He was of a similar persuasion and I did find his writings and examples fascinating, but whilst some traditions may develop "more organically" or "more authentically" than others, all traditions and folk-cultural myths are invented to some degree in the sense that they are humanly-created. How do you distinguish between the "authentic" or "natural" and the "invented"?

What is our national language if it is not Celtic? Is, say, the Book of Kells mere deceptive hype?