War Crimes

**A face** · 30/04/2004, 7:12 PM

Lads,

What do you think ? Washington Post ran with pictures of the US troops killed in the last six weeks while the rest of the world saw what the US troops are really at. These so called "liberators" were caught with Iraqi pants down and it is interesting ot see which news groups condem these acts and which ones are deflecting them.

Do they now deserve everything they get ??

**liam88** · 30/04/2004, 8:26 PM

O.k I certainly wouldn't say that they deserve everything they get because this is not every coalition soldier. I know someone who's brother is currently fighting with the British army out there and you cannot say that because some members of an army commit atrocities then everyone deserves to be killed. You cannot excuse the killing of every British soldier because of what went on in Northern Ireland. Pitch cappings and the like were nothing short of inhumane but this doesn't excuse every British soldier who is killed (anywhere in the world). Mabye my opinion would be different if I had close relatives in the North.
This aside the American soldiers who commited these atrocities were SICK and should be punished to the full extent. They may have seen friends and comrades killed but this does not give them any right or any excuse to torture the POW's.
Again, parreles can be drawn wioth Northern Ireland on all fronts.
We were reading the article today with some people on the train and at the bit about this being a violation of the Geneva convention I pointed out that the Iraqis had already broken it. "Oh so that makes it alright then?" asked somebody. No! The point I was trying to make was in this war the Geneva convention has gone out the window. I wasn't excusing it, simply pointed out that NIETHER side has kept to the genva convention which certainly is not good.
It gives a terrible impression of a coalition which has already recieved such bad publicity but now the soldiers are being targeted and not the leaders. I can almost gairantee that this is no reflection on the vast majority of soldiers out there but might be played that way by the press.
On a footnote the "We didn't have copies of the Genva convention" argument is worthless and will never stand. You don't need it written down to know it's wrong to wire prisoners genitals up to electrodes.

**Plastic Paddy** · 30/04/2004, 8:45 PM

Well said Liam. One of the most unfortunate things about war is the dehumanisation of the opposition, or indeed anyone with an alternate view. It's so easy to forget that every soldier is someone's son or daughter, with a partner, kids of their own, etc. Once this goes, it becomes easy to rationalise inhumane acts, because individual people are no longer a part of the killing equation. Someone on these boards recently quoted Uncle Joe Stalin, and I paraphrase - to kill once is a tragedy, a million times a statistic. Says it all really.

PP

**Declan_Michael** · 30/04/2004, 9:23 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3675215.stm

Just found the above article if your interested.

**brendy_�ire** · 30/04/2004, 10:46 PM

Not surprised really by the photos at all. We all knew that stuff was going on, as has been the case in Afghanistan. Just the soliders involved in this incident were stupid enough to take the photos.
As for them getting prosecuted?? Aye, fat chance. They'll be suspended, sent home, and everyone will forget about them. Sad, but true.

**A face** · 01/05/2004, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by brendy_�ire

Aye, fat chance.

Yeah ... they are still investigating similar incidents in Afganistan, and how long ago was that, and it is still pending investigation. that just thats the biscuit.

They actually dont care about the Geneva convention at all, or anything else that stands in their way, or at least, thats the impression they give. Two fingers up to anyone that doesn't like it.

**brendy_�ire** · 01/05/2004, 12:39 PM

Anyone see the newest photos with the British soldier? Even more shocking than the US ones.

Again though, given the record of the Brits investing even more serious stuff in the north, it'll all come to nothing.

**lopez** · 01/05/2004, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by brendy_�ire

Not surprised really by the photos at all. We all knew that stuff was going on, as has been the case in Afghanistan. Just the soliders involved in this incident were stupid enough to take the photos.
As for them getting prosecuted?? Aye, fat chance. They'll be suspended, sent home, and everyone will forget about them. Sad, but true.

You don't have to go to Afghanistan. How's about Ireland. A para kills a joyrider, found guilty in court of murder, and gets let out in a year or two by the campaign of far-right ar*e wipes to go back and 'serve'

in his old regiment. Or the bloke who killed Bananarama's manager. Again found guilty of murder, out in a year, back 'serving'. Let's not even mention the torture of prisoners in the seventies. You're right Brendy: 'fat chance' indeed!

**eoinh** · 01/05/2004, 8:20 PM

Originally Posted by brendy_�ire

Anyone see the newest photos with the British soldier? Even more shocking than the US ones.

Article about it here

**Duncan Gardner** · 02/05/2004, 9:12 AM

Steady on Lopez. In both the cases you detail the soldiers were prosecuted and imprisoned. Sure, they shouldn't have allowed back into the Army but aren't you implying a judicial cover-up? If so, not guilty.

Liam88. I have a number of close relatives in "the North" and actually I don't stereotype every single British soldier there. I hope you'll join me.

**lopez** · 02/05/2004, 1:56 PM

Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner

Steady on Lopez. In both the cases you detail the soldiers were prosecuted and imprisoned. Sure, they shouldn't have allowed back into the Army but aren't you implying a judicial cover-up? If so, not guilty.

What I'm implying is that the soldiers were found guilty by a British court - hardly partial like say a kangaroo court in South Armagh. Normally murder would last for ten years at least - multiple murders longer as was the case with Lee Clegg - but in these cases they weren't. I'm sure the judges that sentenced them weren't at fault but the last time I looked prisoners do not get released because the Daily Mail ring up and ask that they should. Nor do they get their jobs back. It's not that I still think Clegg should be inside - the GFA ended that argument - just that it makes a mockery of the British army's role in Ireland as peacekeepers.

As for stereotyping soldiers. I think Liam was talking about people who may have been on the end of some 'summary' street justice or had their doors kicked in...by mistake of course! Having worked with quite a few ex-squaddies, I'd say there are a number that would fit into the category of soldier in the picture. Certainly they always had a few tales to tell about their visits to Ireland, but sadly they left Ireland still dissapointed. There are also a good number (wouldn't say most but perhaps half) that are really good blokes, even sticking up for my point of view on Ireland against those who know nothing about the place except what they've read in The Scum. I'm sure these photos are all fake. The group of soldiers I've mentioned above would have been as stupid as the Yanks and not resisted getting their mugs in the photos too.

Anyway enough about soldiers from me: Might get my mates Research Girl and the groupie back lecturing me about how many mercenaries... sorry, soldiers 'serving' from the Republic are in the self appointed 'world's greatest armed forces'. Nice to see you back for a 'discussion.'

**Duncan Gardner** · 02/05/2004, 3:45 PM

Indeed I have not been away. Trust you had a good time in Poland, the cheerleaders impressed even if the game didn't

No doubt Liam 88 will answer for himself, but the implication in his post was that

a) he would likely be more critical of the British Army if he had relatives in NI, because

b) people in NI are likely to have been directly intimidated by the Army.

I see this as a bit of a generalisation...

**lopez** · 02/05/2004, 4:08 PM

Generalisations. We're all guilty of them!

Good time in Polonia indeed. Think Davros managed not to insult anyone despite the first couple of words of the pre-Federal Republic of Germany anthem in a kebab shop in Warsaw. Left him on the way to Poznan: God help the people of Poznan!

**liam88** · 02/05/2004, 8:47 PM

Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner

No doubt Liam 88 will answer for himself, but the implication in his post was that

a) he would likely be more critical of the British Army if he had relatives in NI, because

b) people in NI are likely to have been directly intimidated by the Army.

I see this as a bit of a generalisation...

No I didn't mean it like that. I said 'mabye' my opinions would be different because I can't go making judgements whenI don't have any close relatives in Northern Ireland.
I said it so as not to cause offence.
I know someone who's fiancee was shot while on a British army petrol before the ceasefire and never murdered or tortured in his life, don't think he was ever even involved in combat.
I just didn't want to go throwing around judgements when I know that there are people on this forum who have a lot more experience and knowledge of Northern Ireland than me

**eoinh** · 02/05/2004, 9:01 PM

Unfortunately war crimes, human rights abuses etc are happening constantly around the world. I think its always strange that no one cares unless its the Americans or the British who are involved. Whats happening in Sudan at the moment is disgusting yet it hardly gets a mention anywhere.

See Here

**liam88** · 02/05/2004, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by davros

Don't worry Liam.....yer still entitled to an opinion....you talk more sense than most unionists....

Your not saying I'm a unionist are you? I'm not

**brendy_�ire** · 02/05/2004, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by eoinh

Whats happening in Sudan at the moment is disgusting yet it hardly gets a mention anywhere.

But Sudan is poor with no real natural resources. Nothing for the leaders of the 'free world' to gain from there. It's a crap world alright.

As for generalising of British soldiers, I find it hard not to. It seems that the majority of them have some sort of deep-rooted hatred of the Irish. From shooting dead my ma's friend on Bloody Sunday, locking my granda out of his house, shooting me with a plastic bullet when I was 9, or having an English solider point his automatic rifle at me and call me a "paddy *******" in my own country, they just don't care. So at the risk of generalising, the British Army are nothing more than a bunch of legalised thugs and murderers. Maybe there are some decent British soldiers, but they seem to be few and far between. I find it very difficult to have any sympathy whatsoever for any British soldier killed in Iraq. The likelihood is they deserved it.

**lopez** · 02/05/2004, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by davros

Aye,but most of the other clowns who do this,don't claim to be great upholders of world democracy blah.......

Took the words out of my mouth.

**eoinh** · 03/05/2004, 9:38 AM

i know but its peoples lives which count. Is it a hint of racism when thousands of people die and its hardly reported on. Why didnt people march for Rwanda or why arent they marching NOW for Sudan.

Its the same for some companies. Yoy should not be buying products from a whole host of companies.